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21 - 24 MAY 2001
This week, the Tribunal continued to
hear the remaining submissions on whether to use intelligence material about
civilian witnesses.
The Guardian newspaper’s Simon
Winchester told the Tribunal that he thought the Army fired needlessly on Bloody
Sunday. He described being shot at
by an Army marksman when he was in front of the city walls.
John Patrick Friel described seeing a
soldier at the entrance of the Rossville Flats car park, fire through the gap
between Blocks 1 and 2 of the flats. Bernard
Gillespie gave evidence about a civilian gunman in the Columbcille Court area.
William McDonagh spoke of hearing cries from inside an APC after having
seen a body from the rubble barricade thrown into it.
A full transcript of proceedings is
available at http://www.bloody-sunday-inquiry.org.uk
1 STEVIE McCRUDDEN’S EVIDENCE
1.1
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL
1.1.1
Rossville
Flats
Mr McCrudden was at the south side of the Rossville Flats when he heard the shooting. He saw people fall to the ground. He is not sure whether he saw people on the top of the Rossville Flats throwing stones and what he assumed to be petrol bombs on Bloody Sunday or another day.
1.2
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS
1.2.1
Rossville
Flats
Mr McCrudden said that he did not think
he heard machine gun fire that day. He
agreed that the people on top of the flats could get some protection from the
parapet of the roof.
2 SIMON WINCHESTER’S EVIDENCE
Simon Winchester was a reporter for The
Guardian newspaper on Bloody Sunday.
2.1
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL
2.1.1
Reason
for covering the march
Simon Winchester asked permission to
cover the Derry march after attending Magilligan the previous week.
He described the Magilligan demonstration as extremely violent and
wondered whether it was a new policy.
Mr Winchester tried to get in touch with
General Ford on the 27th or 28th of January and was told
that the paras would be involved in Derry on the 30th.
He thinks that it may have been Colin Wallace or Frank Kitson who told
him. He said that this added to his
belief that he should go and cover the march.
He had the feeling that this was going to be important and if there was a
confrontation, it would be a spirited one.
2.1.2
Meeting
with Provisionals
Mr Winchester said that he also felt
that the IRA were preparing for a major operation.
He had lunch with Martin Meehan and several other high-ranking
Provisionals in Dundalk at which time they told him that they were going to
intensify the fighting against the British.
The Derry march had not been routed at
this stage and there was no suggestion that the Provisionals were going to do
anything on the 30th.
The Provisionals told him that they were
being supplied with weapons by the general insurrectionary movement around the
world, and now had the material with which to wage war.
Mr Winchester said that he arrived and
met low level Provisionals in Derry on the night before the march.
They were people who were likely to be familiar with the thinking of the
Provisionals rather than actual members.
Mr Winchester had the impression that the Provisionals would not be
involved and that they were going to move their important weapons out in case
they were likely to be seized by the British authorities
2.1.3
Barriers 12, 13 and 14
Mr Winchester was at the front of the
march. He told the soldier that he
was a newspaperman and asked to be let through Barrier 12 on Little James
Street. The soldier told him that
he would have to stay and take what was coming.
Mr Winchester was also refused entry at Barrier 13.
Mr Winchester was about 30 yards back
from Barrier 14. He said stones and
pieces of metal and wood were thrown by the crowd at the soldiers.
There was fairly heavy bombardment for 5 to 10 minutes in which the
soldiers did not react. This was followed by the use of the water cannon, gas and
rubber bullets.
Mr Winchester moved back along William
Street and heard a shot which came from behind him anywhere in the area of
Glenfada Park, Rossville Flats or Little Diamond.
He said that he does not really know what type of shot it was but knows
that it sounded significantly different from the other shots he heard.
2.1.4
Kells
Walk
Mr Winchester made his way along
Rossville Street towards Free Derry Corner.
He saw a crowd that had gathered being pushed away by a number of youths.
The youths were in the alley to the north of the Kells Walk building.
He thought that they were clearing a path of fire.
He thinks that he may have seen this happen twice.
2.1.5
Rossville
Street and Rossville Flats car park
Mr Winchester saw nine armoured vehicles
coming towards him. He remembers a
Humber one-toner screeching to a halt somewhere on the waste ground between Eden
Place and Pilot Row. Soldiers
deployed from it with guns, dropping into firing positions.
He heard gunfire, screaming and saw injured people.
Mr Winchester saw a man, who was
bleeding profusely from the leg in the car park.
2.1.6
South of the Rossville Flats
He saw soldiers firing and had the
feeling that they were aiming up in the air possibly at the Rossville Flats.
Very soon after this firing, he saw injured people and remembers two in
particular lying on the ground. One
of the two seemed to be still mobile and was dragged in the gap between Blocks 1
and 2.
Mr Winchester said that, by this stage
he was apprehensive and frightened. He
became aware of soldiers progressing towards Glenfada Park South.
He decided to follow people who had disappeared into the stairwells and
exits of the Rossville Flats. He
went through the gap between Block 1 and 2 of the flats and made his way along
the passageway in front of Block 2.
Mr Winchester heard firing from the
Glenfada Park area and moved against the general flow of people and got out at
the gap between Blocks 2 and 3. He
thinks he may have gone into a stairwell to shelter for a few moments.
He heard high velocity fire and what sounded like a machine gun returning
the army’s fire. He was aware
that there was one, if not two helicopters in the air at the time.
He said that he thinks it sounded more like a machine gun than a
helicopter but he could not swear to this.
Mr Winchester saw a body being taken
from the Joseph Place area into the Joseph Place flats.
The man looked lifeless.
Mr Winchester saw about a dozen soldiers
by Glenfada Park South with army vehicles.
Some of the soldiers were looking in the direction of Free Derry Corner;
some in the direction of Joseph Place and some were using binoculars.
2.1.7
Shot
fired towards Mr Winchester
Mr Winchester walked up the steps that
led to Fahan Street East and met a civilian.
He walked up to the city walls to the point just below the Army OP.
He noticed two soldiers somewhere around the junction of Fahan Street
West and Rossville Street. One of the soldiers got down on one knee and Mr Winchester
saw two rapid jerks and a puff of smoke. The
next thing he heard was a smack over his left shoulder.
A small shower of stones pebbled down on the road beside him.
The stones fell onto the roadway. The
shot had hit the city walls behind him.
Mr Winchester now has no recollection of
the soldier firing 4 to 6 shots towards the gap between the two Joseph Place
blocks. He said that the suggestion
that someone was firing at him had taken over his memory.
2.1.8
Lecky
Road
Mr Winchester remembers people being put
hurriedly into the backs of cars and being driven off at high speed.
He though that they were all casualties.
2.1.9
Long Tower Church
Mr Winchester said that he came under
fire from a gunman near the Long Tower church.
He does not think he was aimed at as the gunman was at very close range
and could not have missed if he had been aiming at him.
He was aware of the gunman being there but does not know whether he
actually saw the gunman.
2.1.10
Army firing
Mr Winchester said his view that the
Army fired needlessly on Bloody Sunday remains unchanged.
From what he saw they were firing essentially at unarmed civilians.
He said that he saw a sustained number of shots and said that he is
puzzled why he had said 6 or 7 shots in his evidence to Lord Widgery.
He said that he might have been flustered by the questioning.
2.1.11
Contact with Provisionals after Bloody Sunday
Mr Winchester and a colleague were
interrogated by a group of Provos outside a dance hall in Donegal a couple of
months after Bloody Sunday. They
had assumed that he was a member of the British Army.
A more senior member of the group then
identified Mr Winchester as a Guardian reporter and told him that it had been a
foolish mistake to say that they had fired the first shot when they had not.
2.1.12
Army document
Mr Winchester was shown an internal Army document that deals with an article written by Simon Hoggart about two army units requesting the paras be kept out of their areas. The document alleges that Mr Hoggart and Mr Winchester had written the article from answers given to disguised questions and in ‘off the record’ conversations. It claims that Mr Winchester had agreed that to produce the article under these circumstances was unethical and unprofessional.
Mr Winchester said that he was not
involved in producing the article. He
said that the Army document was ludicrous.
He would never have agreed that the article was produced in an unethical
manner. Had it occurred, it was a
perfectly legitimate journalistic operation.
Mr Winchester said that he was aware
that some army commanders were uneasy with the presence of the paras because
they did not make their job any easier.
2.2
QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE FAMILIES AND WOUNDED
2.2.1
Contact
with Army before Bloody Sunday
Mr Winchester said that he was a close
friend with Brigadier Kitson. They
shared an interest in postcolonial military policy.
Mr Winchester said that he spoke to
someone at Lisburn who told him that the paras would be deployed.
He asked the person whether this was sensible and they laughed off the
notion that it might be more spirited than normal.
He said that his interest was heightened when he found out that the paras
would be used because it meant that he might have a rather more dramatic story
than the kind of thing that normally happened at William Street.
2.2.2
Barriers
Mr Winchester said that 50 or 60 times before Bloody Sunday it had been standard practice for him to be allowed across the barricade as a journalist. He agreed that this indicated a change of tactics. He was surprised at being refused permission to pass into a peaceful area on two occasions.
2.2.3
First
shot
When Mr Winchester heard the first shot of the day he was facing Barrier 14. He said that there was an arc of possible areas where the shot had come from, which ranged from Little Diamond to Glenfada Park South.
He was not aware of any soldiers in the Abbey Taxis building. He said that the first shot he heard did not sound like the shots that he heard later. He thinks that he noted the time that he heard the first shot as 4:05pm.
2.2.4
Kells
Walk
Mr Winchester did not hear any firing when he saw the men that he thought were clearing a line of fire.
2.2.5
Machine gunfire
Mr Winchester was a friend of John Chartres who was a reporter for the Times. Mr Chartres had very good contacts with the Army and was a member of the Territorial Army. In evidence to Lord Widgery, Mr Chartres said that it was very easy to confuse the sound of a helicopter with machine gun fire. Mr Winchester said that he had considered this and discounted it at the time. He said that today he certainly could not be sure whether it was the helicopter or machine gun fire.
2.2.6
Casualties
Mr Winchester was shown photographs of
the bodies of Patrick Doherty and Hugh Gilmore to see if they fit the
description he had given of the two casualties.
He said that the photograph of Patrick Doherty is memorable because of
the coat.
Mr Winchester was in the stairwell of
Block 1 for a few minutes. He
agreed that he could have been confusing the body of Kevin McElhinney, which was
brought into the stairwell with the memory he now has of someone being taken
between Blocks 1 and 2.
2.2.7
Free Derry Corner
Mr Winchester said that he thinks he saw
more than three or four casualties when he was at Free Derry Corner.
He places the figure at seven. He
does not think that they had blood on all of them so it is conceivable that some
of them could have been distressed and were getting out of the area.
2.2.8
Joseph Place
He saw one army marksman on Rossville
Street in front of the Glenfada Park flats who was firing shots across to the
direction of Joseph Place. He saw
two men fall in the gap between Joseph Place and the Rossville Flats. They appeared to have been hit.
He could not say that they had been hit by the Army marksman who appeared
to be firing in a slightly different direction.
He recalls that people tended to fall
whenever there was a burst of fire just to avoid the fire. He said that he could not say with precision that they were
victims.
2.2.10
Long Tower Church
Mr Winchester said there was no
suggestion of anyone lurking inside the church with a gun.
Had there been a gunman inside the church, he would have known.
There were civilians cowering, afraid and worried about when it was safe
to go.
2.2.11
Army document
The Army document about Simon
Hoggart’s article refers to Mr Winchester being ‘recovered.’
He was asked whether the Army saw him as an asset or as a person they
could feed stories to the public through. He
said that he knows, in retrospect, that he was a useful mouthpiece. The Army
were very eager to tell him a great
deal about what they knew about the people they had shot.
There was a greater degree of suspicion
towards The Guardian as a newspaper because it was not seen as a friend of the
Ministry of Defence. He does not
recall any particular change in attitude from the senior Army officers.
2.2.12
Army press briefing
When the Widgery Report was published,
only defence correspondents were invited to the Army press briefing.
Mr Winchester said that he thought that this was monstrous because he was
the man on the spot and should have heard the results of the Inquiry to be able
to comment on them immediately.
2.3
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF NICRA
2.3.1
Stewarding
There were a number of stewards on the
march. He had the impression that
their job was to protect the dignity of lord Brockway and the speakers.
He does not recall where he got the information that Lord Brockway had
praised the discipline of the crowd. Mr
Winchester agreed that the crowd was disciplined, apart from the few at barrier
14.
He said that he would have expected the
organisers of the march to provide the Knights of Malta.
2.3.2
Conversations
before Bloody Sunday
Mr Winchester said that after Magilligan,
he was interested in finding out how robust the Army would be.
He had no specific recollection of conversations with the Provisionals in
the previous week. He said that he
might have talked to Special Branch but not Superintendent Lagan.
He said that he would have spoken to
officials of NICRA but he does not know their names.
The organisers had told him about the meeting at Free Derry.
2.3.3
The
ban on marches
Mr Winchester said that he did not think
that he was exposing himself by marching with the marchers. He thought journalists occupied a position of professional
agnosticism. He did not think that
he would be scooped up by the military. He
never checked on the legality of the ban.
2.3.4
Army
press conference
Mr Winchester said that he thought it
was extraordinary that the press conference after the Widgery Inquiry was
limited to defence correspondents. He
said specialist correspondents enjoyed a degree of camaraderie with the
department they were covering. Their
questioning would not be as hostile. He felt that he was being deliberately
excluded.
2.4
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS
2.4.1
Relationship
with the military
Mr Winchester said that his contacts
were with individual soldiers as distinct from the MoD.
His relationship with individual officers was good before and after
Bloody Sunday.
2.4.2
NICRA and the Officials
Mr Winchester
said that he would not be surprised if the Officials gave the march
support. The relationship between
the Officials and NICRA was closer than with the Provisionals.
In his book, ‘In Holy Terror,’ Mr
Winchester described the press conference held by NICRA to announce the Derry
march. Kevin McCorry was at the
conference. Mr Winchester said that
to say that someone held Official views did not mean the views of the Official
IRA.
2.4.3
Magilligan
Mr Winchester agreed that there was no
violence on the marchers until they mounted an attack on the security of the
camp. He said that Nigel Wade’s view that the marchers had been pushed into
the sea by the paras was not diametrically opposed to his own. In his book he had written ‘for more than half an hour,
there was bitter hand to hand
fighting.’ He said that both
sides were angry at each other.
2.4.4
Meeting with Provisionals in Dundalk
In a meeting before Christmas 1971, the
Provos told Mr Winchester that they would intensify the fighting against the
British. He said that he knew the
fighting in 1972 would be more intense than in 1971. Any confrontation was bound to be of great interest.
2.4.5
Provisionals movements on Bloody Sunday
Mr Winchester said he was expecting
trouble, but was not expecting gunfire. He
assumed that the most senior Provisionals and their weapons were being moved out
to Donegal. He thought that one or
two people may have stayed behind. He
said that when he heard the shot at 4:05pm and what he thought was machinegun
fire, he thought to himself they were prudent enough to keep a few weapons and
men around.
2.4.6
Rossville
Flats car park
Mr Winchester saw people running and
heard ammunition fired. He cannot
recall rubber bullets being fired but it is possible that the underlying base
noise was such that it was rubber bullet fire.
2.4.7
News
report
Mr Winchester was asked about the first
sentence of his news report published in the Guardian the next day.
He had written, ‘The tragic and inevitable doomsday situation which has
been universally forecast for Northern Ireland arrived when soldiers, firing
into a large crowd of civil rights demonstrators, shot and killed 13.’
He knew that there were a number of different shooting incidents and had
conflated them into one sentence for the introduction.
Mr Winchester said that he had got the
figures from Altnagelvin. In his
article he had written that he heard one sub-machine gun.
He said that he could have been more cautious. He had heard what he believed to be one submachine gun.
He said that he had written this on the day, minutes after it had
happened. He had debated the point
with John Chartres who was fairly certain that what he had heard was a
helicopter and not machine gun fire.
2.5
FURTHER QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL
2.5.1
Shot fired towards Mr Winchester
Mr Clarke tried to locate the position
that Mr Winchester was in when the shot was fired towards him.
He recalls a piece of masonry chipping behind him.
He thinks that he may have been on the grassy bank immediately in front
of the Derry Walls because he wanted to get as high up as he could but still
keep some protection.
2.5.2
Casualties
Mr Winchester thought he saw the two men fall when he got to the top of the Fahan street East steps. He agreed that he may have seen them when he came out from the gap between Blocks 1 and 2 and that he had conflated this with seeing others fall when he was on the steps.
The soldier that he saw firing was not
responsible for the two men that he saw fall because he was firing in a
different direction.
2.5.3
Provisionals
Mr Winchester said that he was more
interested in the Provisionals as they were the more potent face in Derry at the
time. He thinks that there were
about 200 to 300 men in the Provisionals and had no idea about the numbers in
the Officials.
3
PATRICK McKEEVER’S EVIDENCE
3.1
QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL
3.1.1
William
Street
Mr McKeever said that he saw a group of 3 or 4 soldiers around an APC. Some were kneeling and some standing. An officer shouted at the soldiers and they started to fire their weapons down Rossville Street. He assumed they were firing rubber bullets.
3.1.2
Chamberlain Street
As Mr McKeever ran down Chamberlain
Street, a soldier came out of a side street and grabbed him. Mr McKeever pushed him off and as he was fending him off he
heard a shot. The next day he saw a
bullet mark beneath the guttering of a house on the corner of Chamberlain Street
and Harvey Street. Mr McKeever ran
down Chamberlain Street and heard 10 or 12 shots fired from somewhere to the
north.
3.1.3
Rossville Flats car park
Mr McKeever saw a boy fall in the car
park. He stopped and the boy was
lying on his stomach. He recalls
seeing the palm of the boy’s hand facing upwards and said that it was clean.
3.2
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS
3.2.1
1972
statement
Mr McKeever agreed there is no reference to the shots fired in Chamberlain Street in his 1972 statement. He said that there were probably 10 to 20 people waiting to make statements in the same room and he might not have picked up on every possible item.
He said that there is no doubt in his
mind that he made a statement in John Hume’s house on the night of Bloody
Sunday.
4
MARTIN
BOWEN’S EVIDENCE
Mr Bowen was a teacher at St Joseph’s school.
4.1
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL
4.1.1
St
Joseph’s pupils
Mr Bowen was asked whether it was a matter of concern to the staff at St Joseph’s that pupils might be rioting. He said that it would have been form for young boys to taunt the soldiers and call names. It was normally much older boys who were involved in rioting. The younger boys would retire and leave the main rioting to the older boys.
The staff at St Joseph’s school had been told that anything that happened outside the school was out of their responsibility and beyond their control. The headmaster said that the school should be a place of calm.
4.1.2
Rossville Street
Mr Bowen reached the northwest corner of Block 1 of the Rossville Flats when he heard a fusillade of fire. The shooting was coming from behind him from the William Street entrance to Rossville Street. He recalls people around him looking back behind them as they were making their way into Rossville Street towards Free Derry Corner.
There was still a crowd of people in Rossville Street at this time. Mr Bowen looked over his shoulder and saw two people falling. His impression was that they had been shot, from the way that they fell. The two were facing Free Derry Corner and he thinks that they fell forward.
4.1.3
Statement
taking
Mr Bowen does not recall who asked him to take statements. He was given instructions including not to put words into people’s mouths, to allow people to use their own words and to take down precisely what people had said. His understanding was that the statements should be short and concise and say exactly what the witness had seen or heard.
He thinks that he knew he could ask questions to get witnesses to clarify what they were saying. He thinks that he took about 20 to 30 statements over a period of 1 to 2 days. He remembers handing the statements to someone in a room.
4.2
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS
4.2.1
Statements
Mr Bowen said that he was aware of the
risk that a witness would say what he believed to be true but what he actually
had not seen. He said that he was
very careful to clarify points with them.
Mr Bowen was told to take the statements
as quickly as possible. He knew
some of the people that he took statements from and others he did not know.
4.2.2
Rossville
Street
He agreed that if his impression of the
two people he saw shot in Rossville Street were correct then it would mean that
they had been shot in the back.
5
ERIC
IRVINE’S EVIDENCE
Eric Irvine had come out of the Army eighteen months before Bloody Sunday after having served in Hong Kong.
5.1
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL
5.1.1
SLRs
Mr Irvine had been trained in the use of SLRs. He heard a rumour that the SLR could be adapted to an automatic but he had never seen that done.
5.1.2
Free Derry Corner
Mr Irvine heard a rapid burst of fire and saw bullets hitting the ground near Free Derry Corner. Everyone was panicking and running for cover. Then he saw a bullet strike the northern block of the right hand side of Free Derry Corner. He made his way to Lecky Road.
5.1.3
Shooting
Mr Irvine said the shooting he heard that day lasted about 30 minutes in total.
5.1.4
Tracer Bullets
That evening Mr Irvine went to Mullans Club. He said that when he walked past the BSR factory, he saw tracer bullets going over his head towards the Creggan.
5.2
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS
5.2.1
Free
Derry Corner
Mr Irvine said that he first heard shooting when he was at Free Derry Corner. He thought the shots were coming from the walls.
5.2.2
Tracer Bullets
Mr Irvine said that he did not imagine
seeing the tracer bullets.
6
JOHN
PATRICK FRIEL’S EVIDENCE
6.1
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL
6.1.1
Warnings
Mr Friel’s mother and father both warned him about going on the march, before he left home to attend the march. The gist of what his parents said was that the British soldiers were ‘out to get’ some of those taking part in the march. Mr Friel took this to mean that the soldiers were going to be very heavy handed.
Mr Friel’s father had been returning
from mass with a friend when soldiers had called them bastards and other things.
Mr Friel was shown the two statements his father made in 1972 where it
says that the soldiers had said ‘you’ll get it today you bastards.’
This corresponds with the warning that Mr Friel had received from his
father.
His mother’s statement records her
going out with Anne Meehan at 2:40pm. Mr
Friel suggested that this might be 12:40pm because he said his mother was at
home by 2:40pm. He thinks that his
mother had gone out in the morning and was able to tell him what she had seen
when they were having dinner.
6.1.2
IRA
No one specifically said that there
would be no IRA involvement on the march. The
word had got out that there would be no IRA.
Mr Friel said that he assumed that this meant the Officials and the
Provisionals.
6.1.3
Destination
Mr Friel said that it was whilst he was in the march that news filtered back through the crowd that the march had been stopped by the Army and the meeting would be held at Free Derry Corner rather than the Guildhall.
6.1.4
Chamberlain
Street and Rossville Street
When he was in Chamberlain Street, Mr
Friel saw some jeering, cat calling and stone throwing.
Mr Friel returned to Rossville Street
and saw a man injured in the nose and mouth.
He thought that the man could have been hit by a gas canister or rubber
bullet.
Mr Friel went back to Chamberlain Street
and saw the Army come in. He
started to semi-run down Chamberlain Street and looked to his right and saw Army
vehicles travelling up Rossville Street. He
heard two or three live rounds being fired behind him.
Mr Friel was confronted by an APC in the
car park. He ran towards the low
wall in front of Block 2. He heard
people saying ‘they shot him, they shot him – the murderers.’
He saw 5 or 6 people kneeling over a body on the ground, in the position
that corresponds with that of Jack Duddy.
Mr Friel saw a soldier in the back yard
of the end house on the west side of Chamberlain Street fire two shots through
the gap between Blocks 1 and 2. He
did not notice any other soldiers during the period he was in the car park.
He could not be sure how many people were trying to get through the gap
at the time the soldier fired.
Mr Friel saw his father shouting at the
soldiers from a balcony in Block 1 of the flats.
He said that his father later told the family that he had thrown a bottle
of windowlene at the soldiers.
Mr Friel went into Block 2 of the flats.
He took cover behind a door and saw a soldier at the back of the
Chamberlain Street houses fire again towards the gap between Blocks 1 and 2.
The soldier was in the same position as before and Mr Friel assumed that
it was the same soldier.
6.1.5
Rossville
Street
Mr Friel saw a male casualty in the
entrance to block 1. Some people
took the casualty inside and put him down on a landing half way between the
ground level and first floor. Mr
Friel searched the body on the request of a priest.
He found a rubber bullet in the left jacket pocket.
He now knows the body was that of Kevin McElhinney and the priest was
Father Irwin.
6.1.6
The Sunday Times
Mr Friel sent his statement to the Sunday Times because he had no faith in the Widgery Inquiry. When he heard the Insight team was investigating what happened on Bloody Sunday, he felt that it was a right and proper place to place his statement. He never met any of the journalists at that time.
6.2
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE FAMILIES AND WOUNDED
6.2.1
Rossville
Flats car park
Mr Friel said that he was amazed that his father had thrown a bottle of windowlene from one of the Block 1 flats because it was so out of character for his father to throw anything at anybody. Windowlene was a vivid pink colour and was in a transparent glass bottle.
6.3
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS
6.3.1
Rossville Flats car park
Mr Friel heard smashing bottles.
He did not see the bottle of windowlene or any other bottle being thrown.
He did not see stones being thrown by people.
6.3.2
IRA
Mr Friel’s expectation was that neither wing of the IRA would be present on the march. He could not say what other peoples’ expectations were.
7
BERNARD
GILLESPIE’S EVIDENCE
Bernard Gillespie had joined the UDR in 1968 and left subsequently because it became obvious to him that nothing was changing.
7.1
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL
7.1.1
Magilligan
Mr Gillespie described three incidents he had witnessed at Magilligan.
He saw a soldier grab a man by the
throat, pulling him close to him and aiming his rubber bullet gun at the man’s
head, firing at point blank range. The
man moved his head to one side just in time so that the bullet whizzed past him.
He said that he is sure the soldier was seeking to fire into the man’s
head as opposed to past his head.
He saw a tall soldier swinging his rifle
by the barrel and hitting people with the stock.
He also saw a small soldier shooting his rubber bullet gun at everyone
and an officer having to beat the man’s hands with a baton to make him drop
the gun.
7.1.2
William
Street
Mr Gillespie said that by the time he reached barrier 14, stones were flying through the air and rubber bullets were being fired. He moved back up William Street and saw soldiers on the roof of the GPO. After he had been there for about 10 minutes, a young lad walked around the southwest corner of the laundry waste ground. Mr Gillespie heard a rifle shot and saw the boy fall.
Shortly afterwards a middle-aged man walked around the same corner. Mr Gillespie heard another crack which appeared to come from the roof of the GPO building.
7.1.3
Civilian gunman
Mr Gillespie noticed an argument taking
place at the corner of Columbcille Court. There
were 7 or 8 men facing the slats at the side of the flats, arguing with somebody
behind the slats who was holding a rifle. The men, who looked like marchers, were telling the gunman to
go away. As far as Mr Gillespie
knew, the gunman withdrew.
7.2
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE FAMILIES AND WOUNDED
7.2.1
Daniel
Gillespie
Mr Gillespie said that he thinks he saw Daniel Gillespie in the area of the Blucher Street/Westland Street junction. He was on his own and was in a distressed state.
7.3
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS
7.3.1
Civilian gunman
Mr Gillespie could not say whether Mrs
Bradley had seen the same gunman as him in Columbcille Court. The man that he saw was in a different location to Mrs
Bradley’s sighting. The man he
saw had a rifle rather than a handgun.
Mr Gillespie is sure that he did not
hear any shot in this area. When he
left, the Army was moving into the area.
Mr Gillespie agreed that he had thought
it was fair and reasonable to omit any reference to the civilian gunman in his
1972 statement.
8
ANGELA
COPP’S EVIDENCE
8.1
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL
8.1.1
Rossville
Flats car park
Mrs Copp was with Maureen Barr and
Dolores McFarland in Block 3 of the Rossville Flats.
She saw a soldier kneeling at the northern end of Block 1 of the flats
facing the car park. Another
soldier appeared behind the first and remained standing. The next thing Mrs Copp became aware of was seeing a young
boy being shot. There was nothing
in the boy’s hands.
Mrs Copp said that the soldier looked up
and she got down on the floor because she thought that he was going to fire
towards the flat. She was not aware
of anything hitting the masonry around the flat.
8.2
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS
8.2.1
Rossville Flats car park
Mrs Copp said that she did not see the
recoil of the first soldier’s gun but she knows that he fired the gun and shot
the boy in the back.
9
WILLIAM
McDONAGH’S EVIDENCE
9.1
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL
9.1.1
Rossville
Flats car park
Mr McDonagh was watching from Block 1 of the Rossville Flats. He saw a man who he described as quite elderly being seized by 2 or 3 soldiers who were standing behind an APC.
Mr McDonagh saw a soldier firing a gun
indiscriminately from his waist or midriff.
He heard the crack of at least two shots. He thinks that the soldiers were in the waste ground behind
him. He did not hear any rubber
bullets. Mr McDonagh said that he
assumed that the soldier who was firing from the south west corner of
Chamberlain Street was the same soldier who had gone for the old man.
9.1.2
Rossville
Street
Mr McDonagh saw 5 or 6 soldiers at the northwest corner of Block 1. He also saw soldiers at the south gable end of Glenfada Park North. One of the soldiers had a rifle pointed up to the flats. Mr McDonagh did not see this soldier firing. He could see 2 or 3 soldiers on the side of Block 1 of the flats. He thought that they were firing at Free Derry Corner.
Mr McDonagh could see stragglers heading down towards Free Derry Corner. He saw a boy clutch his leg and fall down. There was sustained gunfire for roughly 10 minutes before he looked out of the window again. He saw two men lying at the rubble barricade. He saw a third man waving a handkerchief.
Mr McDonagh saw an APC approach the rubble barricade. He saw one of the bodies being thrown into the back of the APC. There was a lull in the shooting and he could hear cries coming from the back of the APC. Rifles were again pointed at the flats and Mr McDonagh moved away.
9.2
QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS
9.2.1
Rossville Flats car park
Mr McDonagh said that he believed the
position he saw the soldier fire from was the west side of the APC.
When the soldier fired, the youth fell, so Mr McDonagh took it that he
had shot him.
9.2.2
Rossville Street
Mr McDonagh said that he only saw one
body being put into the APC. The
soldiers were holding the body by the belt and collar.
Mr McDonagh said that the cries he heard
were not an impression. They were
the cries of people who were hurt. Mr
Glasgow said that the medical evidence suggests that the three people who were
put into the APCs probably died extremely rapidly.
Mr McDonagh said that he could not comment on this.
10
SHAUN
DOHERTY’S EVIDENCE
10.1
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL
10.1.1
Magilligan
Mr Doherty remembers plastic bullets being fired at very close range. He said he was 20 or 30 yards away from the shooting. He described the atmosphere at the Magilligan march as light hearted, even on the way back.
10.1.2
William Street
Mr Doherty heard two shots when he was on William Street. He did not notice any reaction from the soldiers or from the crowd around him.
10.1.3
Free Derry Corner
Mr Doherty noticed 2 soldiers on the walls who were looking down. He did not see any weapons but he presumed that the soldiers were carrying them because it was normal in Derry for them to have weapons. The shooting started. He could not say accurately where it came from or how long it lasted.
10.1.4
Westland Street
Mr Doherty said that his wife and her friend sheltered behind a car because they had heard that there was shooting from the walls. He said that he stayed in this area for 5 minutes and did not see any cars with weapons or gunmen.
10.2
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS
10.2.1
Craigavon Bridge
Mr Doherty said that the Royal Anglian
soldier he had been stopped by on Craigavon Bridge the night after Bloody Sunday
recognised him two years later. On the second time that he met him, the soldier
asked Mr Doherty whether he remembered him and said ‘the paras fucked off and
left us to it.’ Mr Glasgow told
Mr Doherty that it could not have been a member of the Royal Anglians because
they left Derry in 1972. Mr Doherty
said that he had not made this up and is absolutely definite about both
occasions.
10.2.1
Statements
Mr Doherty was a teacher at St Joseph’s school and was not asked to take statements. He said that he was not aware that statements were being taken as the school was closed for three days. He had not made a statement because he had not seen any of the shooting or killing and thought that he did not have anything further to add.
10.3
FURTHER
QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL
10.3.1
Craigavon Bridge
Mr Doherty said
that it was the first time he was stopped that he recognised the soldier as a
Royal Anglian. He assumed that the
soldier had not changed regiments when the soldier approached him two years
later.
11
DR
MARTIN MELAUGH’S EVIDENCE
11.1
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL
11.1.1
Bullet holes
Dr Melaugh spent Bloody Sunday in the Creggan. The following morning he went around the scenes of the shootings. He saw two bullet holes in the covering of piping that ran along the gable of Block 2 of the Rossville Flats. The holes were 20 inches wide and 6 inches deep. The entry hole was from the direction of the Rossville Flats car park and the exit hole splayed to the south of the Flats. The bullet holes were approximately 6 feet from the ground. When he looked through the holes he saw the sandbag emplacement making up the Army OP on the Embassy Ballroom.
Dr Melaugh also saw bullet holes in a wall in Glenfada Park North that ran underneath the walkway on the southwest of the courtyard. He said that he had no way of telling when these bullet holes had been made.
11.2
QUESTIONS
ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS
11.2.1
Bullet holes
Dr Melaugh was 14 years old at the time of Bloody Sunday. He agreed that Leonard Green’s evidence about the bullet holes in the casing would be better evidence. He said that what is distinct in his mind is the view through the holes.
12
VINCENT McCAULEY’S EVIDENCE
12.1 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL
12.1.1
Rossville Street
Mr McCauley heard the first high velocity shots as he came through the gap between Blocks 2 and 3 of the Rossville Flats. He saw some young boys close to Rossville Street who had bricks in their hands and were saying ‘come on boys, lets get them.’
Mr McCauley could see a soldier near the Kells Walk wall who was walking south along Rossville Street and firing from the hip. The soldier had his SLR gripped in both hands with the stock at the level of his right hip.
Mr McCauley said that there were people lying on the ground in the general area. He cannot recall seeing people at the rubble barricade. His impression was that the youths who had picked up the stones were running towards the soldier and the soldier was running towards them firing his gun.
12.1.2
1972 statement
Mr McCauley was asked why he had not mentioned the soldier firing from the hip in his 1972 statement. He said that he was a shy,15 years old at the time and was recounting a terrible experience.
12.2
QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS
12.2.1
Rossville Street
Mr McCauley said that he remembers the soldier moving out from the Kells Walk wall, moving south down Rossville Street and firing 2 or 3 shots while he was moving.
12.2.2
1972 statement
Mr McCauley said that he was nervous when he gave his statement in 1972. He had never seen a soldier firing into an unarmed crowd. He was terrified and badly shocked. When he got home he had found out that more and more people had been killed. When he made his statement there were a lot of distressed people about. He did not have time to go over the scene. He said that it was perfectly understandable that some of the details of his evidence were not in his 1972 statement.
13 HEARING ON THE USE OF INTELLIGENCE MATERIAL continued
The Tribunal heard the remaining submissions on whether they should use intelligence material relating to civilian witnesses. It also heard the response by the soldiers’ lawyers to the submissions made by the families and wounded and the civilian witnesses. At the end, counsel to the BSI, Mr Clarke summed up the debate.
13.1
SUBMISSIONS ON BEHALF OF FIVE MEMBERS OF THE OFFICIAL IRA
Mr Purvis appeared on behalf of five members of the Official IRA. He argued that his clients had come forward, precisely because they were members of the Official IRA at the time of Bloody Sunday. He asked what a collateral investigation into their activities would achieve. He said that his clients had concerns that they will be linked to notorious events which will quite possibly lead to future reprisals.
(Mr Lloyd Jones, on behalf of the
soldiers, had argued that whilst it may be sufficient for a witness to admit to
IRA involvement, there would cases when the extent and dates of involvement may
be needed.)
13.2
SUBMISSIONS ON BEHALF OF CLIENTS OF NOEL WILSON
The clients of Noel Wilson are civilian
witnesses. They were represented by
Mr O’Rourke who said that he supported the arguments made by the families and
wounded last week. He added the
following points;
13.3
FURTHER SUBMISSION AND RESPONSE ON BEHALF OF THE AGENCIES
Mr Sayles said that the search criteria
expounded by Mr Elias and Mr Lloyd Jones last week was too wide. He said that
the Agencies need clear and objective terms to carry out an effective search of
their intelligence files.
Mr Sayles said that the Agencies
believed they had disclosed everything they have which is directly relevant to
Bloody Sunday. Mr Lloyd Jones’
suggestion would involve the Agencies trawling through all their records in the
remote chance that something useful might turn up.
Mr Sayles responded to Mr O’Rourke’s suggestion that the summaries indicate where the intelligence material came from. He said that it would not be practical because the material might come from several agencies. It could not be applied uniformly because some of the information would be the subject of PII.
13.4
RESPONSE ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS
13.4.1
On behalf of the clients of Anthony Lawton
Mr Lloyd Jones said that the Agencies were not in a position to make any submission as to the relevance or value of the intelligence material. He said that it should not be beyond the powers of Government agencies to carry out searches to look for specific categories of information.
13.4.2
On behalf of the clients of Robert Aitken
Mr Elias said that the Tribunal should not deprive itself of material that may reflect on a witness’s evidence if it is to seek the truth.
13.5
SUMMING UP BY COUNSEL TO THE BSI
Mr Clarke summarised the legal and practical issues involved in the use of intelligence material. He considered the issues within the two categories of relevant material and material which goes to credibility.
13.5.1
Relevant material
Mr Clarke explained that the subdivision of relevant material had become a source of confusion because the first subdivision was of more direct relevance than the other two subdivisions. The first subdivision relates to material that gives information on the plans of paramilitaries or events of the day. The next two subdivisions identifies people, paramilitaries and their associates, who might reasonably be supposed be able to tell the BSI about the plans and events of the days.
Mr Clarke said that the objection that the Agencies had to the use of summaries could be overcome because they could trace possible witnesses from information held on other witnesses. This would not mean that the Agencies were searching for unidentified witnesses.
He said that it is important to analyse the purpose for looking for the material in the last two categories in order to work out the extent to which the material should be deployed and in order to ensure that Article 8 (right to privacy) is not infringed. The primary purpose of looking for the remaining material under the relevance category is to identify people who are in a position to help the BSI because they were members of or associated with the IRA and therefore could be supposed to be in a position to know what the plans were on the day.
Mr Clarke examined the logistics in dealing with the relevant material. He said that it is a cumbersome process particularly in light of the full public interest immunity (PII) process, which might take years. He suggested an alternative way of handling the relevant material in the last two subdivisions. The Agencies could assemble the material and produce summaries for counsel to the BSI so that he could get some form of grasp of what the material contains, the probative value of the material and consider the possibility of PII claims. This would mean that Articles 2 and 8 would still need to be considered but it would be on a reduced quantity of material.
Mr Clarke said that he did not dispute Mr O’Rourke’s submission that it would be unfair to put allegations to witnesses if the BSI was not prepared to investigate the validity of such allegations. He said that the task of going through the material is substantial and there are limits to the extent that it is feasible for counsel to delve through the underlying material for checking purposes.
13.5.2
Credibility material
Mr Clarke said that the distinction between credibility and relevance is not always clear-cut. Credibility material bears on the credit of the witnesses who are to give evidence. The problem is that the material proves too little and proving any more may mean trials within trials.
He said that the law in this area is a vuln