BLOODY SUNDAY INQUIRY Week 14

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24 - 30 NOVEMBER 2000

This week, the BSI heard the opening statements on behalf of the soldiers and then began to hear oral evidence from civilian witnesses. The reserve member of the Tribunal, Mr Justice William Esson of the Court of Appeal of British Columbia, joined the BSI to listen to the evidence.

Witnesses are called to give oral evidence if the Tribunal or any of the interested parties believe that they can add to the evidence already before the BSI. The Tribunal have emphasised that simply because a witness is not called to give oral evidence does not mean that their evidence is not taken into account. As well as hearing oral evidence, the Tribunal is re-reading some of the statements of those who have not been called.

The witnesses are called in order of the sector to which most of their evidence applies. Christopher Clarke QC, as counsel to the BSI, is the first to question the witness. The witness is then questioned by lawyers for the families and then for the soldiers. Mr Clarke can ask more questions if anything else has arisen during the examination.

This week the witnesses mostly gave evidence of warnings before Bloody Sunday, the Magilligan march and events on the morning of the march. The BSI also heard evidence from a witness who said that he was a member of the Provisional IRA at the time of Bloody Sunday.

A full transcript of proceedings is available at http://www.bloody-sunday-inquiry.org.uk.

Edwin Glasgow QC is representing the clients of Anthony Lawton who include, Generals Ford, MacLellan, Steele, Welsh, Colonel Wilford, Soldiers A, AB, AC, AD, B, C, D, F, J, K, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, Z, 019, 200, 237 and 411other soldiers.

Mr Glasgow said that he would not use the opening statement to respond to other opening statements because he did not want to behave in an adversarial manner. He criticised some of the opening statements of the lawyers representing the families for being adversarial rather than identifying issues.

He said that the problem with analysing documents is that often a debate is reduced to a few lines. He said that he would not add to the various interpretations of what the documents could mean but would wait until the authors of those documents come to give oral evidence.

Mr Glasgow pointed to evidence that is still missing from the BSI. He said that the BSI does not have any documents on what the organisers of the march had planned either to avoid or provoke confrontation with the soldiers. He said that they do not have transcripts of the radio transmissions made by the civilians who were seen using walkie-talkies on the balconies of the flats in circumstances where observers believed them to be IRA men. He said that the BSI do not know the identities of leading Republicans or have statements or co-operation from the majority of the 40 people that the BSI believe were connected to the IRA in Derry.

1.1 REPRESENTING INDIVIDUAL SOLDIERS - NOT THE ARMY

Mr Glasgow said that he is not representing the Army or the Ministry of Defence (MoD). He said that he acts for 440 individuals. (At the Widgery Inquiry, the Army rather than individual soldiers were represented.)

He said that this placed the lawyers representing the families in a better position because they are acting for fewer clients and so can concentrate on specific witnesses. In contrast the soldiers' lawyers have much more to consider.

1.2 MEMORY LOSS AND PERCEPTION

Mr Glasgow accepts that convenient memory loss in a witness can be evidence of deception. It may also be wholly truthful. Honest people can also give accounts which are manifestly inaccurate and unreliable.

The central dilemma of the whole of Bloody Sunday is that the perception of each individual witness to the violence of Bloody Sunday was, and is predicated by what he or she saw as the rights and wrongs, safeties and dangers of the day. Mr Glasgow warned that those perceptions might have been strengthened by the passage of time.

1.3 WHAT THE SOLDIERS SAY COLLECTIVELY

Mr Glasgow recognised that the Tribunal and interested parties are helped by knowing, at least in general terms, what the soldiers say collectively.

1.3.1 The soldiers responded to violence

What the soldiers did on Bloody Sunday was done in reaction to mob violence and sustained, serious physical attacks.

1.3.2 Fired at those they believed were using firearms

The soldiers who fired live rounds will say that they aimed and shot at only those who they believed to be using a firearm or to be threatening lethal violence to them or others. They accept that they would not have been entitled to fire on any other basis. (Mr Glasgow excluded the two soldiers who talk of warning shots.)

1.3.3 No plan to provoke violence

The soldiers did not carry out any plan to provoke violence or take advantage of violence. None of the soldiers did anything which he believed was other than fully and lawfully justified.

1.3.4 The soldiers do not say that the killed or wounded were armed

It does not follow that those who have been identified as killed or wounded, were themselves gunmen or bombers. They will not contend that anyone who was killed or wounded was armed with any type of lethal weapon.

Mr Glasgow said that he accepts innocent people were killed and that is one of the greatest tragedies that can occur.

1.4 GUNMEN AND UNIDENTIFIED CASUALTIES

Mr Glasgow suggested that gunmen and bombers were killed on Bloody Sunday.

1.4.1 Unidentified casualties

34 civilian witnesses refer to a victim or casualty cited in a particular place whose identity is unknown. Mr Glasgow said that this could mean there are 34 unidentified or untraced or unknown casualties. These unidentified casualties may include gunmen or bombers.

1.4.2 Civilian gunmen

Mr Glasgow said that he is worried that those civilians who made a statement which referred to having seen civilian gunmen have not come forward and given statements to the BSI. (Mr Clarke said that the majority of those witnesses are now deceased. The BSI is either taking statements or trying to get statements from the rest.)

Mr Glasgow said that it is unhelpful that the photograph of 'Father Daly's gunman' is missing. (The BSI only has a photograph taken of a video still of the photograph when it was shown on a documentary.) He said that it is unhelpful that none of those people who saw this man is willing or able to name him. Mr Glasgow said that there was a widespread reluctance on the part of many civilian witnesses to give full accounts of what they knew about gunmen.

Not one single civilian gunman who fired a shot has come forward to make a statement or has been identified by someone who knows his identity.

1.5 PERSPECTIVE OF SOLDIER ON THE GROUND

Mr Glasgow asked the Tribunal to consider what the typical soldier faced on Bloody Sunday. He described an account that has been reduced down from the numerous accounts given by the soldiers.

1.5.1 Typical account

· The soldier is driven from Belfast to Derry, a city he does not know. He goes because he is ordered to go.
· His orders are that he is likely to be sent into a riot to arrest those who have been rioting.
· He hears the shot or is told about the shot at the Presbyterian Church. He is now aware that there is at least one gunman.
· He is ordered into the area where he is met by young men prepared to hurl objects at him or to assault him.
· He knows that if some of those young men get their hands on him they will kill him.
· Once deployed he moves on his own initiative to make arrests which he believes he is justified in making.
· It is not for him to question whether this was the correct time to launch the arrest operation. He does what he is told to do.
· He hears shooting, quite close to him, in a confined urban environment.
· He sees, on his evidence, a man who he believes to be in possession of a lethal weapon.
· He has to make a decision, upon which his life depends and he shoots the man.
· In the early hours of the following morning, he is required by the Royal Military Police to provide a statement.
· Mr Glasgow said that the crucial moment that the soldier is expected to give the most precise information is the split second in which he takes the decision whether to fire or not.

1.5.2 Photographs

Clive Limpkin's book, The Battle of the Bogside is a collection of photographs taken of Derry before Bloody Sunday. Mr Glasgow said that the photographs illustrate that the violence against soldiers was not a reaction to Bloody Sunday.

Mr Glasgow used a photograph taken on Bloody Sunday of a figure behind one of the pillars at the south side of block 2 of the Rossville flats. He suggested that the figure could have looked like a nail bomber to a soldier standing in Glenfada Park.

1.6 DIFFERENCES IN RECOLLECTION AND SUPPOSED INCONSISTENCIES

Mr Glasgow asked the Tribunal to approach the differences in recollection and supposed inconsistencies in evidence in the same way for both civilian and military witnesses.

He criticised Mr Clarke for having referred to 'discrepancies' in the soldiers' statements but describing civilians' different accounts as 'inconsistencies.'

Gerard Elias QC represents Soldiers 134,138, 150, 202, 218, 229, 101, 351, 374, 569, 709, 1115, 1868, 1937 and Colonel Overbury.

He said that the evidence is yet to be called and tested so now is not the time to make final assessments. Mr Elias said that the Tribunal face a difficult task in deciding which memories have been rightly jogged and which may be first-hand experience tangled with rumour or media-induced recollection.

Mr Elias explained that he represented a range of different witnesses who had different roles on Bloody Sunday. He cannot present a single view of what happened on the day. Some of his clients accept that there were shortcomings in the planning and execution of Operation Forecast and that there may have been some loss of military discipline. Whether this contributed to the loss of life needs to be analysed.

He acknowledged that question marks may be raised over the Widgery Inquiry and accepts that it is appropriate to consider whether it was as rigorous as it might have been.

Mr Elias warned against attributing generalised fault based upon individual failings. If military personnel acted outside their remit, it does not follow that all of the army must be castigated for such failings.

Sir Allan Green QC represents Soldiers H,104, 1165, 1831, 1836, 1847, 1848, 2064 and 2107.

Sir Allan said that however hard everyone tries, there are bound to be gaps in the story which cannot be filled except by guesswork. For example, Sir Harry Tuzo died in August 1998 - it might be impossible to find out what his response was to General Ford's 7th January memorandum. Sir Allan said that a total reconstruction of what happened in a very short period of time amid the highest possible tension can never be established.

Sir Allan noted that Soldier H has given seven accounts of what happened on Bloody Sunday.

He said that he will wait to hear the evidence before making any further submissions.

Daniel Porter moved to England in 1956. He lived in Old Coulsdon which was a village close to Caterham Army barracks. His wife and their two children would return to Derry two or three times a year, to visit family.

4.1 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL

Mr Porter gave evidence about a conversation he had with soldiers in the Tudor Rose pub in Old Coulsdon. The soldiers said that they were going to Derry to 'clear the Bog.' Mr Porter took this to be a reference to clearing away the barricades. He did not know who the soldiers were or what rank they would have been.

Two or three nights after this, Mr Porter telephoned his wife who was visiting her sister in Derry. The call had to go through the telephone operator based at the Old Coulsdon exchange. Mr Porter was told that no calls were going through to Northern Ireland. When Mr Porter explained that he just wanted to speak to his wife, the operator recognised his voice. Mr Porter said that the operator told him that he would put him through, provided he did not talk about security. Mr Porter got through to his wife and told her to take the children out of Derry because the Army would be 'clearing the Bog.' Mr Porter said that the line was cut off.

Mr Porter said that he did not connect the conversation he had with the soldiers to Bloody Sunday until a few years later when he was discussing it with someone in a pub in Buncrana.

4.2 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS

Mr Glasgow suggested that the conversation between the soldiers was a reference to Operation Motorman which took place in July 1972. Mr Porter could not be sure.

Mr Glasgow said that the Grenadier Guards occupied Caterham Barracks in 1972.

Mr Porter said that he was not mistaken about the telephone call being cut off by the operator. He said that this memory sticks out in his mind because he was concerned for the safety of his wife and their children.

Mr Roddy was employed by the Old City Dairy in 1972 and was about to take over as the driver of the float. He and Eddie Gillespie would make deliveries of milk to Ebrington Barracks and they started to have breakfast with a black soldier there who they had become friendly with.

5.1 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL

A couple of weeks before Bloody Sunday, the soldier asked Mr Roddy not to go into the NAFFI because one of his men had been killed. Mr Clarke said that this evidence corresponds with records which show one soldier was shot on 9 November 1971 and another was shot on 29 December 1971.

Mr Roddy said that the week before Bloody Sunday, the black soldier told him that the Parachute Regiment had arrived at Ebrington Barracks. The soldier advised Mr Roddy that if he knew anyone in control of the march he should tell them not to let it go ahead because the paratroopers 'were coming in and meant to do serious damage and even kill people.' Mr Clarke said that the Paratroopers were not in Derry in the week before the march.

Mr Roddy does not recall the soldier warning him about Magilligan march. (Jim Stewart said that John Roddy told him the soldier had warned him against the Magilligan and the Bloody Sunday marches.)

Mr Roddy said that on the day of Bloody Sunday, he and Jim Stewart had driven the milk float around the Bogside and the Creggan. He thinks he heard the word that the paratroopers would invade the Creggan as soon as the march started from word having got around. He said that he saw soldiers manning a barricade in Infirmary Street.

Mr Roddy said that he and Jim Stewart drove the milk float down to the Bogside to see what was happening on the march. As they drove south down Westland Street, he noticed 300 people running towards them.

He remembers hearing shooting but did not observe much because he was trying to drive the van out of the area. People were jumping on the back of the float to try and get away.

5.2 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE FAMILIES

Mr Harvey pointed to a newspaper article in the Derry Journal of 4th February 1972 which said there had been scuffles between the Coldstream Guards and the Paras at Ebrington Barracks. He asked whether Mr Roddy might have incorporated this story into his account. Mr Roddy agreed that after 28 years it was difficult to know what he had been told about Bloody Sunday compared with what he had experienced.

He said that whilst there could be some elements he had incorporated into his statement, he is absolutely clear that there was a black soldier in the barracks who had warned him about the dangers of attending the march.

5.3 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS

Mr Roddy agreed when Mr Glasgow asked whether he could have been beaten up if it was known that he had contact with a soldier.

Mr Roddy is sure that he was told the Parachute Regiment had arrived, although it might not necessarily have been in Ebrington Barracks.

He said that over the years he might have heard things about Bloody Sunday and confused them with things that had happened to him. He insisted that he was sure that the black soldier had given him a warning.

Mr Green was an engineer in the telephone exchange in Derry.

6.1 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL

6.1.1 The day of the march

On the day of the march, he worked until midday and then went to the start of the march in the Creggan. He broke off from the march at Lonemore Road because he had to return to work at the telephone exchange.

Mr Green remembers being in William Street at the time the army barricades went up because he had not been able to get through it. He managed to get to Waterloo Place and saw a dozen loyalist supporters. As Mr Green approached them he heard the sergeant say to the loyalists,
'okay boys, don't worry about it, we will take care of the bastards today'

Mr Green met Austin Currie and suggested he come to the telephone exchange because he was worried that the loyalists would recognise him as he was a prominent civil rights figure.

Mr Green saw General Ford between 2:45pm and 3:00pm at barrier 12.

Mr Green returned to work and said that at about 4:30pm, one of the people in the exchange said that two people had been killed. The atmosphere in the exchange changed to one of extreme anxiety because people were worried about their families and relatives. People started ringing around to try and get more news.

Mr Green said that he had no direct knowledge of the telephone exchange being bugged by the IRA. He said that all through the troubles there were always rumours that peoples' telephones were being tapped from both sides.

6.1.2 Bullet holes

Mr Green said that he saw two holes on either side of the casing around the telephone cable at the corner of block 2 of the Rossville flats. The hole on the northern side appeared to be the entrance hole. Mr Green said that he inserted a biro into the two holes and lined them up, as is done on the sight of a rifle. The holes were just above eye-level.

On the same gable end wall, he saw fresh gouges at face level in the concrete with the same slight downward inclination as the lines of the holes in the casing. These gouges were roughly, but not precisely in line with the holes in the casing. Mr Green provided the Tribunal with a sketch of the metal casing that he had drawn to try and explain how it looked.

He also saw three bullet holes in the three-penny bits on the side nearest to the alleyway between blocks 1 and 2.

He said that the position of one of the bullet holes was in direct line with the Observation Post (OP) on top of the Embassy Ballroom.

Mr Green said that he is certain that the bullet holes in the metal casing were caused by bullets fired from the Embassy Ballroom. He is not so sure about the gouges in the three-penny bits.

Photographs taken of the view from the Embassy Ballroom were shown to the BSI. It was possible to see into the gap between blocks 1 and 2.

Mr Green had first noticed the holes, the morning after Bloody Sunday when he was on his way to buy a newspaper. He said that the holes were fresh in the cement as if they had recently been made. People were standing around the holes speculating where they might have been fired from. Mr Green said that it was obvious, even to somebody untrained, that the bullets which caused the holes had been fired from above ground level. He said that the bullets that hit the three-penny bits must have hit the surface straight on because of the marks that were left.

6.2 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE FAMILIES

Mr Green became a permanent resident in Northern Ireland in 1956. Mr Harvey asked him to give an indication of the political background at the time. He said that the founding of NICRA was one of the significant changes in Northern Ireland. NICRA drew support from a broad class of individuals. If the IRA had tried to manipulate NICRA, Mr Green believed that it would have destroyed the civil rights movement.

There was no indication that the IRA would use the march on Bloody Sunday. The first couple of ranks were taken up by women with prams. The general opinion in Derry at the time was that people had been 'walked over long enough.'

Mr Green remembers seeing General Ford on the junction of Sackville Street and Little James Street because he had pointed him out to a companion.

6.3 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS

6.3.1 The day of the march

Mr Glasgow asked whether the initial report had got to the telephone exchange because a call had been intercepted by someone in the exchange. Mr Green said that he did not know or care how the initial report that people had been killed had got there. He said 'the message was more important than the way it was delivered.'

Mr Green said that he did not know whether military conversations were routinely listened into.

6.3.2 Bullet holes

Mr Glasgow challenged Mr Green about his evidence that the bullet holes were fresh. Mr Green's evidence is that the steel in the casing was 'mirror bright' at 8:30am on the morning after Bloody Sunday. He said that the disturbance to the surface of the casing must have been made within 20 hours. He explained that broken galvanised steel loses its brightness once it is exposed to air. Before the metal would rust it goes dull.

Mr Green suggested that if the shot that caused the hole had been fired before Bloody Sunday, there would be a log of the incident.

Mr Glasgow said that he knew of no evidence that a shot had been fired from the Embassy Ballroom on Bloody Sunday. Mr Green said that he is convinced that the hole was made by a bullet that was fired from the Embassy Ballroom.

In 1972 Sinead McNicholl was the Secretary of the North Derry Committee of NICRA which was based in Dungiven.

7.1 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL

7.1.1 Structure of NICRA

Ms McNicholl was asked about the structure of NICRA and its relationship with local civil rights associations. She explained that it was an organisation appointed in Belfast and that smaller groups were established in various villages and towns throughout Northern Ireland. Ms McNicholl thinks it was possible to be a member of both the province wide organisation and a local association.

The executive of the local associations were elected into their posts.

7.1.2 The march at Magilligan

The North Derry Committee of NICRA organised the march at Magilligan which took place the weekend before Bloody Sunday. The object of the march was the same as all the civil rights marches - to highlight the injustices in Northern Ireland. The idea for the Magilligan march was to hold a rally, to get press coverage and to show people that they were concerned about the camp.

Ms McNicholl said that the marchers went along the beach because the Army expected them to march on the road. When they reached the beach the barrier only went down to the high tide mark. The marchers were able to walk around it on the side closest to the beach.

The Army fired CS gas which blew back to them and then they started to beat the marchers. Ms McNicholl said that she tried to stop a soldier beating a man who she later found out was her cousin. An RUC officer helped her to stop the soldier. She remembers the soldiers firing rubber bullets and beating people with their batons.

She cannot recall how many marchers there were. A Derry Journal report estimated there had been 4,000 marchers.

7.1.3 The Bloody Sunday march

Ms McNicholl remembers being in William Street when the march stopped. She moved into some derelict ground and remembers a group of cameramen next to her.

She then made her way down Rossville Street to the three-penny bits. She heard shots but did not know where they had come from. (Ms McNicholl said that she is definite that she told this to the Eversheds statement taker even though her statement said that she thought the shots came from behind - see 7.3.2 below)

Ms McNicholl ran towards Free Derry Corner. She started to walk up the Lecky Road but was told by some children not to go up there because there was firing.

7.2 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE FAMILIES

7.2.1 Magilligan march

Mr Harvey asked Ms McNicholl what the plan was for the Magilligan march. She said that there was to be a meeting at the end of the march, a speech and then people would make their way home.

7.2.2 Bloody Sunday march

Ms McNicholl heard rumours that the paratroopers would be used at the Bloody Sunday march but she thought that the paratroopers would not want any more bad press.

She had attended all the civil rights marches and had never known the IRA to use them to engage the Army in a firing war. She said that the general population who supported the marches would not want any violence. She pointed to the fact that there were lots of women and children on the march.

7.3 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS

7.3.1 Magilligan march

Sir Allan Green asked Ms McNicholl whether she knew that the Golden Slipper Ballroom had been set alight. (The Golden Slipper Ballroom was the place where the marchers had parked their cars.) Ms McNicholl said that she did not know who had done that. She explained that it was a five-mile walk from Magilligan to the Golden Slipper so it was dark when everyone got back to their cars. She cannot remember when she first heard about the damage.

7.3.2 Bloody Sunday

Mr Glasgow questioned Ms McNicholl about her Eversheds statement. It said
'It was difficult to say where the shots were coming from, although at the time I believed they were coming from behind me. Behind me in this instance could have been anywhere from Joseph Place, the city walls or the Rossville flats.'
Ms McNicholl said that she meant the firing was in the direction of the Rossville flats and not from the Rossville flats.

7.3.3 NICRA

Ms McNicholl is not aware that the Official IRA was a faction within NICRA.

8.1 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL

8.1.1 The IRA

Mr McGlinchey was a member of the republican movement from 1956. He said that there were only about 6 members of the Official IRA in Derry in 1968 but could not say how many members there were at the time of Bloody Sunday.

There were different departments in the republican movement, Mr McGlinchey was responsible for the welfare of prisoners. This involved driving buses to Long Kesh for visits to the internees.

Mr McGlinchey was a member of the Provisionals. He said that he was in the Waterside section and there were about 20 members in that. He could not say how many members were in the other sections.

The UVF have made four attempts on his life as a result of which Mr McGlinchey has lost both his legs.

8.1.2 Bloody Sunday march

Mr McGlinchey drove the lorry that led the march. He said that Barry McFadden, one of the organisers of the march, asked him to have the lorry at the shops in Creggan for 2:30pm. Mr McGlinchey cannot remember who told him which route to take but he believes that he was told at the outset that he had been told to drive to Free Derry Corner.

Mr McGlinchey said that he was not in radio communication with anyone on the march. He did not know anything about the walkie-talkie system.

By the time the lorry reached the junction of William Street and Rossville Street, a large crowd of mainly younger people had got in front of the lorry. Mr McGlinchey said that he was concentrating on the people immediately in front of his lorry and could not say whether the line of stewards had broken up because of the crowds in front of the lorry.

Mr Clarke asked Mr McGlinchey about an interview between a Sunday Times journalist and Kevin McCorry, the NICRA national organiser and press officer. Mr McCorry said that he was on the back of the lorry. He said that the lorry turned the corner into Rossville Street very quickly which created confusion. Mr McCorry said that the stewards had to fight to get the crowd to swing right into Rossville Street and that there was a surge forward of young lads. Mr McGlinchey said that this was incorrect. People had shouted to him to go to the Guildhall but he had turned into Rossville Street. Mr McGlinchey said that he had driven straight down Rossville Street to Free Derry Corner without stopping.

8.1.3 Shooting and search for guns

Mr McGlinchey said that he parked at Free Derry Corner and when the shooting started he went to St Columbs Wells. He said that he did not recall where the shooting came from because he wanted to get a rifle to shoot back at the soldiers to defend the crowd.

He said that he went to Cable Street or Stanley's Walk because it was a place where Provisionals 'hung out.' He went to the gas-yard to look for a gun. Mr McGlinchey said that he did not find a gun and that nobody found a gun. He said that he did not see anybody use a gun. He stayed around Meenan Square for about an hour.

Mr Clarke asked Mr McGlinchey whether he had seen members of the Officials coming out of a house in the Meenan Square area. Mr McGlinchey said that there were 'some boys hanging around Meenan Square' but he could not say what they were members of.

He said that he did not see people arriving in cars from the Creggan. He did not see anyone taking arms out of cars.

In the evening Mr McGlinchey went to the City Hotel to listen to what the journalists were saying.

Mr McGlinchey said that he did not have any orders for the day or standing orders. He said that he did not have access to guns. He had a .22 rifle which he kept in his pig-farm. His lorry was used in all the civil rights marches. He said that he did not know who controlled the Provisionals' or Officials' arms. He took it for granted that their arms would be controlled by a few people. Mr McGlinchey said that he could not say who to go to in the Provisionals if he wanted a gun.

Mr Clarke explained that the Tribunal are facing problems because, with a few exceptions, nobody has been prepared to tell the names or ranks of people in either the Officials of the Provisionals. He suggested that Mr McGlinchey could tell the Tribunal, in private, the names of the members of the Provisionals who he knew. This would give those individuals the opportunity to apply for anonymity. Mr McGlinchey said that he is not prepared to name them and suggested that the RUC could supply a list of names to the Tribunal.

Lord Saville said that the reluctance of people to come forward will speak for itself and indicate that these people have something to hide.

Mr McGlinchey said that he had been a member of the Officials before joining the Provisionals. He was not a member in 1968. He is prepared to name two or three people who were in the Officials in 1968.

8.2 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS

Mr McGlinchey said that he joined the Provisionals in 1970. He accepted that the Provisionals viewed the Officials as less disciplined and less well organised. He agreed that there was some friction between the two wings of the IRA. He said that he was unable to say who caused the 22 military casualties in the 6 months preceding Bloody Sunday.

Mr Glasgow asked Mr McGlinchey who had been in charge of him. Mr McGlinchey said that nobody gave him orders. He attended a Prisoners' Defence Fund (PDF) every Monday evening. Transport to Long Kesh internment camp and fund raising on behalf of the prisoners would be discussed at these meetings.

His instructions to drive the lorry on the Bloody Sunday march had nothing to do with the Provisionals. The march may have been discussed at the PDF meeting.

Mr McGlinchey agreed with Mr Glasgow that had any orders been given as to how the Provisionals should behave on Bloody Sunday he would have known nothing about them.

Mr McGlinchey said that no one knew he kept a .22 rifle at the pig-farm. He had never heard a Thompson sub machine gun and would not know whether the Provisionals had any.

Mr McGlinchey said that he could not remember who he had been with at Meenan Square. In his statement to the BSI he had said that he knew these people well.

He said that he did not see the press conference held by the IRA on the evening of Bloody Sunday.

Mr McGlinchey was asked about the vantage points used in the Bogside by Provisional gunmen. He said that a house in Westland Street was used. He was not aware of any IRA auxiliaries drilling in the days before Bloody Sunday. Mr Elias asked him whether the Rossville flats were ever used by gunmen and Mr McGlinchey said that he had only ever read that in the newspapers.

Mr Elias put the evidence in Noreen Donnelly's statement to Mr McGlinchey. Ms Donnelly said that someone had told her to stay away from Kells Walk because there were about 30 gunmen. Mr McGlinchey said he could not say whether there were any gunmen in this area.

Sir Allan Green suggested that his role as the driver of the lorry at the march may have been discussed at the PDF meeting. Mr McGlinchey said that he had been told to drive the lorry by Barney McFadden (see para 8.1.2 above).

9.1 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL

9.1.1 Shooting on William Street

John Quigg was on the march with his friend, Charlie Meehan. Mr Quigg went into a derelict building on William Street to try and escape from the gas. There were about 20 other people in the derelict building.

He remembers seeing some soldiers in the derelict shirt factory on the north side of William Street. The soldiers were looking out of the windows that directly overlook William Street.

Mr Quigg said that he saw a man to his left move his arm as if he was throwing a stone. The man came into the building where Mr Quigg was and then went back outside. Mr Quigg heard a shot, the man was carried back into the building and he appeared to have been shot in the leg. Mr Quigg said that 10 to 15 minutes later, he heard about 12 shots.

Mr Clarke suggested that Mr Quigg may have been on the waste ground rather than inside the building when the man was shot. He read Charlie Meehan's NICRA statement where he described being on the waste ground when a youth was shot. Mr Meehan described the youth being dragged across the waste ground towards Columbcille Court and then witnessing a second man get shot in the shoulder.

Mr Quigg agreed that he could not be 100% sure that he had been inside the building when the man was shot.

9.1.2 Glenfada Park

Mr Quigg walked to an area he believed to be Glenfada Park. He saw two bodies and could hear gunfire.

Mr Quigg did not recognise the photograph of the three bodies lying in Glenfada Park North. He does not recall seeing any of the people at the gable end of Glenfada Park North.

Mr Quigg remembers four men walking towards casualties with their hands in the air. He recalls taking shelter from gunfire.

9.2 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE FAMILY

Mr Harvey established that when Mr Quigg gave his statement to Eversheds, his memory of events had faded and he tried to reconstruct his memory.

Mr Quigg lived in the Waterside and was unfamiliar with the Glenfada Park and Columbcille Court areas. In his 1972 statement, Mr Quigg had talked of the Glenfada Park area. He had not specified whether he had seen the bodies in Glenfada Park North or South.

Charlie Meehan was a driving instructor and was much more familiar with the Bogside. Mr Meehan's statement indicates that he was in Abbey Park rather than Glenfada Park. He said that they had taken shelter in the southwest corner of Abbey Park. The two bodies he had seen were Gerard Donaghy and Gerard McKinney.

10.1 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL

10.1.1 The morning of the march

Wilfred White was employed by the GPO. Mr White went to work at 7:30am on the Sunday morning. He remembers that after he had got there an APC was allowed into the GPO grounds. A number of soldiers got out of the APC. One of the soldiers had two flasks, a haversack and a .303 rifle. He climbed up a ladder and went through the window into a building adjacent to the GPO grounds.

10.1.2 Shots around the GPO

At about 4:00pm, Mr White came out of the GPO to inspect a lorry. As he reversed the lorry on to a ramp, he heard a loud crack. Mr White said that he saw the soldier at the window of the building, which faced Rossville Street. The soldier had his rifle to his shoulder and there was smoke coming out of the rifle.

Mr White got out of the lorry and heard a shot from roughly in the direction of the Presbyterian Church. He thought the shot had come from there because he had seen a soldier on the roof of the Church earlier in the day. He was told later that this shot came from the Hogg and Mitchell factory which was on the north side of William Street.

10.1.3 The priest on the waste ground

Mr White went back inside the sorting office and heard bumps and bangs. He went outside with his co-workers. Mr White said that he saw 30 or 40 soldiers on a patch of waste ground and a priest standing by the perimeter fence of the GPO. Mr White said that he saw 2 or 3 soldiers putting the priest against the wire fence.

10.1.4 GPO statement

Mr White gave a statement to the GPO's solicitor in the week after Bloody Sunday. He was advised to tear the statement up. Mr White said that he believes he was advised to do this because the postmen would have become a target if it became known that the Army used the GPO grounds.

10.2 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE FAMILIES

10.2.1 Civil rights marches

Mr White said that he had participated in a number of civil rights marches. He said that the IRA had not taken advantage of them but he always had the feeling that they were on the wings, waiting to exploit the situation.

10.2.2 Priest on the waste ground

Mr White said that three soldiers ran at the priest by the perimeter fence on the waste ground. He heard one of the soldiers shouting 'get the bastard up against the fence.' He saw two soldiers hit the priest in the kidneys. The soldiers were kicking the priest's legs apart.

Mr Harvey told Mr White that Father Bradley was not in this area at this time.

10.3 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS

10.3.1 Shooting around the GPO

Mr White did not see a soldier shooting from the Presbyterian Church. He agreed that it could have been a shot to the guttering on the Church that he heard rather than a shot from the Church.

10.3.2 Priest on the waste ground

Mr Lawson represents Soldier 0007, who has identified himself as one of the soldiers in a photograph of this area. Mr White did not know Father Bradley and is unable to identify the priest in the photograph. Mr Lawson said that the only other priest in this area was Father O'Keefe but he was not wearing his clerical collar.

Mr White is adamant that he saw the incident with the priest. He did not think the soldiers were violent. They were showing the priest what he should do.

10.4 FURTHER QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL

Mr Clarke showed a photograph of Father O'Keefe fleeing from a soldier. Mr White said that Father O'Keefe could have been the priest against the fence. Father O'Keefe was wearing a polo-neck shirt which Mr White said he could have mistaken for a clerical collar.

Mrs Turner was a teacher at a school in Derry at the time of Bloody Sunday. She has lived in London since 1973. She went on the march with her sister.

11.1 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL

11.1.1 William Street

Mrs Turner said that she was about two-thirds of the way back in the march and the crowd was about twelve deep. She noticed soldiers in front of the GPO sorting office and around Richards's factory. She thinks that there were soldiers in the Abbey Taxis building.

Mrs Turner said that she had the impression that soldiers were shooting out of the Abbey Taxis building. She also heard rubber bullets being fired at the crowd from soldiers on the north side of William Street.

The march came to a halt and people were waiting to continue when the gas and rubber bullets were fired. Mrs Turner could not understand why the rubber bullets were being fired. She had seen a couple of youths throwing stones at the corner of Rossville Street but she said that the stewards had dealt with them quickly and after that she had not seen anyone throw anything.

11.1.2 The waste ground

In the midst of hearing rubber bullets, Mrs Turner heard a single rifle shot from the Presbyterian Church. She saw a young boy with his arms in the air in a v-shape in the waste ground on the south side of William Street. She did not actually see the boy fall. People had been milling around and there was panic when the shot was fired. Mrs Turner said that there were thousands of people behind her and the only way out was through the rubble on the south side of William Street.

11.1.3 Rossville Street and shots from the walls

Mrs Turner ran through Kells Walk then started to walk towards Free Derry Corner. Someone shouted 'the tanks are coming.' She looked behind and saw the APCs at the corner of Rossville Street. She said that she has a clear memory of the APCs appearing and the soldiers immediately in kneeling positions. She said that the firing seemed to start a few seconds after the APCs stopped and they were definitely live rounds.

Mrs Turner said that she continued down Rossville Street but shots seemed to be coming from another direction. She felt trapped and turned off into the Glenfada Park area. She said that she had not seen any soldiers on the wall, but people who were with her said they did. Mrs Turner said that the bullets seemed to be coming from that direction.

11.1.4 Glenfada Park area

Mrs Turner moved into the Glenfada Park area. She did not know the area as it had recently been redeveloped and she was in a sheer panic. She found a low wall which she hid behind with her sister and several others.

Whilst she was hiding behind the wall, lots of single shots were being fired. Mrs Turner saw an injured lady being helped into a house. The lady was limping and Mrs Turner did not know whether she had been overcome by gas.

11.2 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE FAMILIES

11.2.1 The waste ground

Mrs Turner said that she made a connection between the rifle shot and the boy with his hands in the air. She said that he could have been hit with a rubber bullet or gas canister. She cannot recall seeing him fall but said that she has an abiding memory of the boy with his hands held in the air in a v-shape. She is sure that he had nothing in his hands. At the time that this occurred she had not heard any explosions.

11.2.2 Rossville Street

Richard Harvey asked Mrs Turner about the way that the APCs arrived in Rossville Street. She said that she remembered the sound of screeching brakes. She has a vivid memory of one soldier, almost before the brakes had stopped, kneeling with his rifle pointing down Rossville Street. She said that she felt as if she was in the line of fire.

The firing started seconds after the APCs had screeched to a halt. Mrs Turner said that it was sheer panic and pandemonium after that. The firing seemed to be continuous, single high velocity shots. The soldiers gave no warning or instructions to the civilians on what to do best for their safety.

11.3 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF NICRA

11.3.1 Stewarding

Mrs Turner said that she thought the march was well stewarded. She remembers people putting the marchers in rows and marching along the outside of the march all along the section that she was with.

11.4 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS

11.4.1 William Street

Mrs Turner did not go far enough down William Street to be able to see either barriers 12 or 14. She recalls being affected by the tear gas that came up William Street.

Mrs Turner only heard one shot in this area. She also saw a rubber bullet bouncing off one of the derelict buildings in William Street.

11.4.2 NICRA statement

Mr Elias asked Mrs Turner whether the statement taker had given the name Lisfannon Park when she gave them her statement. Mrs Turner said that she remembered the name for herself because she had seen it when she was sheltering there.

12.1 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL

12.1.1 William Street

Mr Brown said that he saw two soldiers on a low roof next to the Abbey Taxis building as he walked down William Street. As he drew closer to the junction between William Street and Little James Street he heard rubber bullets and CS gas being fired. He said that the part of the march he was with had broken up.

12.1.2 Rossville Street

Mr Brown made his way to Rossville Street where he heard a sharp crack which sounded like a single rifle shot. He was facing the Rossville flats and said it seemed to come from behind him. He did not see any firing on the day or hear any explosions.

12.2 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS

12.2.1 Rossville Street

Mr Brown said that the shot he heard on Rossville Street had come from behind him. He was facing the Rossville flats at the time and the shot came from the William Street direction.

Mr Brown said that he took a route that meant he did not have to walk too close to the Rossville flats in case something dropped down.

13.1 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL

13.1.1 Barrier 14

Mr O'Donnell said that he was at barrier 14 for 15 to 20 minutes. He remembers a police officer saying over a loudhailer that the march was illegal and this was the furthest they could progress. He said that there were about 30 to 40 youths in the vicinity and there was 'minor rioting' going on. He did not see any petrol bombs but he saw stones, bricks and bottles being thrown. Mr O'Donnell left when the water cannon arrived.

13.1.2 Shots and Rossville Street

Mr O'Donnell stopped to help two youths who had been overcome by gas at the junction of Rossville Street. He then heard two high velocity shots which he believes were fired from the east of William Street.

Mr O'Donnell said that he then heard a volley of six or seven live shots which appeared to be coming from a high trajectory. Mr O'Donnell said that the shots sounded as if they came from the city walls.

He recalls seeing two APCs and at least ten soldiers at the north end of Rossville Street and on the waste ground around Eden Place and Pilot Row.

Mr O'Donnell said that he started to run down Rossville Street. He heard screaming and shooting. He remembers seeing the barricade but once the shooting started they dispersed.

13.1.3 Abbey Street and Blucher Street

Mr O'Donnell made his way out of the area to the vicinity of Abbey Street and Blucher Street. He came across a boy with a large hole in one cheek and a smaller hole in the other. Mr Clarke noted that this tied in with other evidence as Michael Quinn was badly shot in the cheek and was taken to hospital from Blucher Street.

13.2 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF NICRA

13.2.3 Media

Mr O'Donnell thinks that there were media at the head of the march.

13.2.2 Stewarding

Mr O'Donnell said that the stewards were trying to keep the youths back from the barricade. They were trying to stop them throwing stones.

13.3 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS

13.3.1 Riots

Mr O'Donnell said that there were mainly children involved in riot situations. He is not familiar with the name 'Aggro Corner.' He was not aware that soldiers had been injured. He did not see any CS gas thrown towards the troops.

13.3.2 Shots from the walls

Mr Elias challenged Mr O'Donnell about his belief that a volley of shots may have come from the walls by suggesting that they may have come from the Rossville flats. Mr O'Donnell said that he thought they had come from the walls. He would never have thought they came from the top of the Rossville flats.

14.1 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL

14.1.1 William Street

Mr McCourt noticed soldiers in a disused garage on the north side of William Street, next to derelict buildings and around the GPO sorting office.

He heard a shot come from the north of William Street. He thought it was from the direction of the GPO but none of the soldiers in that position were pointing at the crowd. He heard a second shot and looked at the GPO again but the soldiers were just standing there.

Mr McCourt them made his way to barrier 14. He said that the stewards were trying to stop people going down William Street. He saw a dozen people throwing stones at the soldiers. Mr McCourt said that he did not join in that day because he had a bad feeling after hearing that two people had been shot.

14.1.2 Rossville Street

Mr McCourt ran towards the alleyway between blocks 1 and 2 of the Rossville flats. He remembers hearing a steady stream of shots. He ran towards Free Derry Corner and did not see anyone firing from there.

14.2 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE FAMILIES

14.2.1 Soldiers' arrival

Mr Harvey showed Mr McCourt some photographs to help jog his memory about the arrival of the soldiers. Mr McCourt said that he was standing at the back of Con Bradley's bar on Rossville Street.

Mr McCourt said that his memory is not precisely clear on where the Army vehicles came from. He does remember that his immediate intention was to escape. He had to weave his way through a number of soldiers and their vehicles to get through the waste ground adjacent to Rossville Street.

14.3 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS

14.3.1 First shot in William Street

Mr Lawson suggested that Mr McCourt was mistaken in thinking that the first shot he heard came from the north side of William Street. Mr McCourt said that he did not think he was mistaken.

Mr Lawson asked Mr McCourt about his statement to the BSI. Mr McCourt had marked the position at which he heard the first shot ahead of the position that he saw people clustered around a body on William Street. Mr McCourt said that he had experienced difficulty visualising his evidence.

14.3.2 Rossville Street

Mr McCourt said that the APCs had come into Rossville Street at a steady pace. He does not recall them speeding.

Mr McCourt agreed with Mr Lawson's suggestion that the soldiers on the waste ground did not immediately open fire because if they had, Mr McCourt would not have weaved around them to get to the Rossville Flats car park.

Billy McCartney was 16 years old at the time of Bloody Sunday. He went on the march with his friend.

15.1 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE TRIBUNAL

15.1.1 Barrier 14

Mr McCartney walked to the lower end of William Street. He said that the stewards and other people in the crowd were trying to get everyone to make their way to Free Derry Corner but he had no real difficulties in getting to barrier 14.

15.1.2 William Street

He and his friend decided to go back up William Street to throw stones at the soldiers positioned in the Abbey Taxis building.

There was a group of 14 or 15 people throwing stones. He said that the soldiers in the Abbey Taxis building retaliated with the odd rubber bullet. The stone throwing went on for about five minutes. Mr McCartney said that he heard a live shot and saw Damien Donaghy fall. He said that he had not seen anyone throwing stones at this stage.

Mr McCartney said that he and others surged forward to look after Damien Donaghy who had fallen on the laundry waste ground.

Mr McCartney saw John Johnson about 15 yards from where Mr Donaghy was shot.

He said that he is confident it was either the soldiers in the Abbey Taxis building or soldiers on the flat roof of the Presbyterian Church who fired the two shots.

He saw a photographer taking photographs of these soldiers.

15.2 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE FAMILIES

15.2.1 William Street

Mr McCartney said that he distinctly heard two live shots but because of the pandemonium there could have been more.

15.3 QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF THE SOLDIERS

15.3.1 William Street

Mr McCartney said that he did not know what Damien Donaghy was doing when he was shot.

15.3.2 Columbcille Court

Mr McCartney had waited outside the house that Damien Donaghy was taken to. He said that he had not been threatened by soldiers. He had not heard gunshot coming from the area of that house.

He did not see a man with a rifle in the Kells Walk area.

The BSI will continue to hear evidence from civilian witnesses next week.

Timetable of proceedings

Monday 27 para 1 - 3
Tuesday 28 para 4 -7.3.3
Wednesday 29 para 8 - 10.4
Thursday 30 para 11 -15.3.2

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