The Baha Mousa Public Inquiry

Day 18: Wednesday 7 October 2009

The evidence of detainee D4 and Private Johnathan Lee, Section Commander David Schofield

Preliminary Issue

The Chairman deal first with an application put forward by Mr Daniel Friedman, one of the counsel for the detainees.  The detainees wanted to rebut evidence which they felt was a slur on the entire country;  such evidence had been expressed by a witness saying that Iraq as a whole smelt and it was argued that such a comment could not be expressed in respect of a nation as a whole.  The Chairman said that witnesses could not be prevented form expressing relevant evidence - that is to say relevant to the Chairman - even if such evidence was expressed in 'unpalatable' terms.  The Chairman said that he would not allow witnesses to comment on other witnesses' statements during the course of the inquiry and that this should be dealt with by way of counsel's submissions.

The evidence of detainee D

Detainee D4 was called as a witness.  D4 confirmed that his statement, in English, had been read over to him in Arabic.  D4 said had been working as a generator operator for a month at the time of the arrests and confirmed that three rifles were generally kept in the hotel reception for protection.  D4 said he knew there were other weapons as C1 had shown them to him but had no idea where they were kept and when asked whether D4 dealt in weapons, confirmed that C1 bought and sold weapons.  D4 said he knew nothing about grenades but admitted being in a photograph holding a gun.  D4 was asleep in reception when soldiers arrived on the 14 September 2003.  D4 said that he did not support Saddam's regime.

D4 said that when the soldiers found the guns they made all the hotel employees, including D4, lie on the floor.  While D4 was on floor he saw a soldier kicking Baha Mousa in the head causing him to shout in pain.  D4 said that he and two hotel employees were taken to the toilet, sworn at, spat on and had toilet water flushed over them.  D4 had not conveyed this 'toilet incident' to the Royal Military Police (RMP) on 25th September 2003 even though he had been quite detailed about other events; D4 (or his interpreter) gave vague answers on why he had not mentioned this to the RMP but it seemed D4 was either too embarrassed, or found it too difficult to discuss the toilet incident.

D4 said he was plasticuffed, hands to back, on the way to the Temporary Detention Facility (TDF), hooded on entering the TDF and confirmed he was there for three days.  D4 said he was double hooded for a time because he was able to see through first hood and that the hoods were removed when detainees were transferred to Bucca Camp.  The hood was removed temporarily for eating, drinking water and a night time visit to doctor.  D4 said that he felt suffocated and afraid with the hood on.  D4 said that 'torture positions' started as soon as he was hooded.

D4 said he was unable to drink water when he wanted.  D4 said there was all kinds of beating and swearing and that this was done in an 'artistic' and 'creative' way.  D4 was beaten all over the body (including kidneys) with kicks and punches and when he would collapse was put into a 'suffocating hold' (D4 demonstrated to the Inquiry how his head was put into an arm lock) until he got back up.  D4 said that there was more than one soldier as the beatings came from different directions and he could recognise different voices.  D4 heard other detainees being beaten and screaming for help.  D4 said that he was able to identify Corporal Payne (from a video) as the man who had first hooded him and who went on to beat, strangle and kick D4 as well as place him in stress positions (crouched position with arms outstretched).  'Loud' and 'improper' things were also said by soldiers. 

D4 confirmed that there was another soldier with moles but was unable to identify him; said soldier punched and photographed D4.  D4 was unable to identify a third soldier, 'Soldier C', earlier for the court martial but now could not remember this man; D4 said that at the time he would have been 100% of what he was saying and was able to see a small amount through hood he was wearing.  D4 was prevented from sleeping through the punches, water being poured on his head and 'no sleep' being shouted.  D4 was also beaten with a metal piece from the window frame on his back and head.  D4 was also tricked into drinking his own urine from a bottle he had used for urinating in which he thought was water.  D4 said that on last day in TDF he was made to run around as well as dance like Michael Jackson.  Under cross-examination D4 confirmed that he had told investigators that as he was hooded he did not know who was hitting him and told the court martial that as there were so many soldiers he did not know which one was hitting him.  The Inquiry was shown photos of bruises to D4's back.

D4 said that he was unable to walk and a stretcher took him to a medical centre.  D4 said he was unhooded when he saw doctor and the doctor seemed displeased, shook his head, when he told him how the injuries had arisen.  The doctor told D4 he had swollen kidneys and blood clotting and was given an injection.  D4 was with doctor for five minutes then came back to TDF and managed to sleep for a while but beatings resumed.

D4 said he was taken for questioning once, his hood removed for questioning and was asked about his job in the hotel and the whereabouts of C1; D4 said he did not remember what this questioner looked like but remembers him shouting at him with his face up close.  D4 said he did not tell the questioner that he had been beaten in TDF but said questioner would know as D4 was groaning in pain and handcuffed. 

When asked where he had been taken after questioning D4 said he did not recall and asked for a five minute break which was granted by the Chairman. 

After the break D4 said that he was taken to a room in the TDF and made to adopt a sitting down stress position, with his hands on his head.  On cross-examination it was revealed that D4 had said to the RMP that he had been treated very well by the questioner though D4's statement to the Inquiry said that the questioner had threatened D4 with torture.

At one point in the Inquiry proceedings, the media screens were turned off and the public gallery was cleared to hear evidence from D4 relating to injuries in respect of which a restriction order had been made.  The public gallery opened and media screens were turned back on once this questioning had finished.

The evidence of Private Johnathan Lee

Mr Lee confirmed that in September 2003 he was a private with 1 Queen’s Lancashire Regiment (1 QLR) and confirmed that within a short time of the Salerno incident suffered from severe depression and received treatment accordingly.  Mr Lee said he had a little history of depression before the Salerno incident.  Mr Lee also said he was recovering from a very serious injury in Afghanistan (losing a leg after being 'blown up') from which he was recovering.

Mr Lee said that he was not given training on hooding but that if he was ever out on patrol and caught anyone with a weapon such person would be hooded and plasticuffed.  Mr Lee had not been trained to use stress positions but knew, through phase 2 training, they were used to punish soldiers for leaving weapons lying around.

For Operation Salerno, Mr Lee was in Colour Sergeant Hollender's multiple (a multiple being a group of soldiers on patrol).  Mr Lee's multiple was called to a hotel, where he saw detainees on ground, and was asked to undertake a hotel search though he was not involved with detainees.  Mr Lee said that a few of the detainees were kicked in hotel and that the detainees were 'dragged up into' Bedford vehicle outside hotel.  When asked whether there was any ill treatment towards the detainees, Mr Lee responded 'same as always', explaining that they were dragged up by their clothes and nothing else.  Even though Mr Lee had said the detainees were sandbagged at the time he no longer thought this was the case when questioned by the Inquiry.  Mr Lee was unsure whether the detainees' hands were tied when questioned by Inquiry but did think so when he gave his statement nearer the time of the incident.  When questioned about his memory about these events Mr Lee responded this was an everyday occurrence so it did not stick in his mind.  Mr Lee said that Corporal Stacey and Private Hill were in the Saxon vehicle with him that drove to the TDF though he was unsure of who else was in the vehicle.

Mr Lee said that when he got to the base he saw the detainees being taken to TDF (which was the first time he had seen such building) and 30 minutes later went into the TDF, by himself, as he needed to speak to Corporal Stacey as he was a signaller and could not get a radio signal.  Mr Lee said he went into the right hand room and saw Corporal Stacey, Private Fallon and Private Crowcroft in the TDF, punching and kicking detainees (who were lined up in a horseshoe shape) 'quite hard' as they fell to the ground and then dragged back up.  Mr Lee estimated there to be eight detainees in the room.  Mr Lee said that the detainees were sandbagged, screaming ‘like babies’, in stress positions (as if sitting on chair with arms out stretched) and thought they were plasticuffed.  Mr Lee said he was in room for few minutes and that he saw other soldiers coming and going all the time in that period but could not recognise them.

 Mr Lee asked a private soldier in his multiple why they were beating the detainees and was told something along lines of 'to make them more compliant'.  Mr Lee also admitted to the Inquiry that in the TDF he dragged a detainee to the floor that had collapsed and punched him once in the chest.  Although Mr Lee had heard of the 'choir' beatings in the TDF he had not witnessed it but had seen a video, shown to him by Corporal Woods (under lengthy cross-examination it was suggested this could have been Lance Corporal H showing him the video on a camera in accordance with Mr Lee's witness statement), of the choir, though could not remember any soldiers from such video; under further questioning Mr Lee was unsure whether he had witnessed the choir first hand, his witness statement said that he that he did see it.  Mr Lee remembered speaking to Fallon and Crowcroft later on and them admitting having beaten the detainees;  Mr Lee also remembered Fallon and Crowcroft having small cuts to their hands and perhaps to their shins and feet. 

Under cross-examination Mr Lee said that although he had heard rumours he had never seen Corporal Payne being violent towards the detainees; Mr Lee also said that the rumour circulating was that as Corporal Payne was in charge he should take the blame.  Mr Lee said that he may have seen Payne at TDF but was unsure.

Mr Lee said that after one of detainees had died he remembered speaking to either Fallon or Crowcroft; he told Mr Lee that Corporal Payne had given them instructions to beat the detainees and they would be beaten if he came into the room and found they were not beating detainees, though Mr Lee was unsure if this was true.  When asked why he had not said this before his statement to the Inquiry Mr Lee said that Corporal Payne had helped him out when he went AWOL, that he did not know how true it was and that the RMP had not specifically asked.

Mr Lee said that although he knew he said in his witness statement that Lieutenant Rodgers kicked a detainee in the hotel that he could not remember this now.

Mr Lee said that as there was so much violence in Iraq and so many officers and soldiers involved with detainees he thought it was the norm at the time.  Mr Lee said that when people were caught with weapons they would be kicked, punched and thrown in the back of the vehicle and that would be it.

Mr Lee said that when he was suffering from depression in 2004 the doctor and  the Padre persuaded Mr Lee to report the incident to the RMP which Mr Lee subsequently did.  Mr Lee said that he did not think it was fair that Corporal Payne was being blamed for everything.

It was suggested that Mr Lee may have made his statements so he would get posted back to the UK (Mr Lee had been AWOL for 405 days at one point); Mr Lee said that he did not need to do this as he had leave coming up and knew he could get a sick note from a civilian doctor so did not have to come back.  When asked whether he was keen to be posted back to the UK to see his girlfriend/fiancée on the basis he was missing her, Mr Lee said that this was not the case as he was having a great time in Cyprus.  Mr Lee had told the RMP that he was worried he would be harmed by others due to him giving his statement and it was again suggested that Mr Lee said this as he was trying to get posted back to the UK.

Mr Lee said that soldiers were at one point taking pictures of everything but that the army clamped down at this towards the end; it was suggested to Mr Lee that the army told people to get rid of photographs after the death of Baha Mousa, Mr Lee thought this was probably the case.

The evidence of David Schofield

David Schofield confirmed he was sent to Iraq in May 2003 as a section commander but by September 2003 was second in command of G5.  Mr Schofield said that hooding and plasti cuffing of detainees was the way things were done in Iraq.  Mr Schofield said that Dai Jones' death had a big impact on the camp.  Mr Schofield, together with Corporal Liggins, went over to the TDF as he needed to use portaloo.  Corporal Liggins went into the right hand room and saw about 5 hooded and restrained detainees with one of them kneeling being punched violently by a 1 QLR soldier in the back and kidneys.  Mr Schofield said there were two more soldiers in the room.  Mr Schofield reported this to Captain Good who went to the TDF; Captain Good later told Mr Schofield that whatever had been going on was not happening when he was there.  Mr Schofield confirmed that he had given the Inquiry a copy of a video of detainees which he had been given by Corporal Cunningham, explaining that the soldiers tended to swap/give away souvenirs/mementos.  Mr Schofield said that due to the lack of support he received at the court martial and the fact his friends his were calling him a turncoat, presumably for testifying, that this was the straw that broke the camel's back and was behind the reason fro him to leave the TA.