The Baha Mousa Public Inquiry

Day 16: Monday 5 October 2009

The evidence of Ali Aktash, Claire Vogel and Gareth Mr Hill

Evidence of Mr Ali Mr Aktash

Mr Aktash, who was giving his evidence via video link [from Cyprus] and was called as a witness and questioned by Mr Gerard Elias QC, counsel to the Inquiry.  Mr Aktash was no longer in the army but had been called to Iraq in 2003 where he had a number of duties including working with stores and escorting civilian work teams.  In September 20 03 Mr Aktash looked after the brigade radio net at BG Main which included keeping a log of radio traffic sent to BG Main.  Although Mr Aktash did not remember the date he did remembered Lieutenant Crawford and Major Peebles being called into the operations s room when they had detained three men.  Mr Aktash's network was not busy and he heard a soldier on the Battle group network saying that they had detained some people and going on to say 'shall we commence the shock of capture?' to which Major Peebles replied 'Yes, but don't go as far as before?' which caught Mr Aktash's attention.  Lieutenant Crawford said 'well that sounds a bit ominous'; when Mr Aktash asked about this Crawford explained that the shock of capture was to keep the shock of capture going to help with interrogation.  When asked whether it was possible that Major Peebles was referring to another set of detainees and not the ones relating to the Inquiry Mr Aktash said no as he did not remember any other detainees coming in.

Mr Aktash said that the day after this operations room incident (Mr Aktash was sure of this timing even though his witness statement said it was the same day) visited the Temporary Detention Facility (TDF) and saw detainees there, one in particular who had several plasticuffs on; when Mr Aktash asked why the  detainee had multiple plasticuffs he was told it was because the detainee attacked a guard or had caused trouble.  Although Mr Aktash's witness statement said he had gone to the TDF with Sergeant Hitchins, Mr Aktash said it would not have been a sergeant and went on to say that 'it was a fellow signaller' from his unit.  It was suggested to Mr Aktash that he made two visits to the TDF, Mr Aktash said this was possible but that he was pretty sure it was only the one visit.  Mr Aktash said the operations room was 20 to 30 metres from the TDF and he went over to the TDF because he heard a whacking sound; the whacking turned out to be a soldier kicking a detainee's hand back into place.

Mr Aktash said he witnessed Corporal Payne pressing his thumbs into a hooded detainee's eyes, through the hood as opposed to under it.  In the TDF Mr Aktash remembered seeing 8 prisoners, the majority hooded, plasticuffed and making noises as if distressed.  One detainee kept falling over and had to be put back in seated position, one detainee was smoking and unhooded and Mr Aktash was told this was because he had been through questioning.  Mr Aktash said that the TDF was hot and unclean.  Mr Aktash also remembered a detainee being run towards the TDF by two soldiers holding each of his arms, the detainee was clearly fatigued as he could not keep up and Mr Aktash had been told that this detainee had been run round the camp.  Outside the TDF one detainee was standing next to a generator which produced a deafening noise if you stood close to it and generated a lot of heat and a soldier was positioned 5 metres from said generator/detainee.

When Mr Aktash headed back he mentioned, in passing as opposed to officially, to a Sergeant in his unit, Sergeant Bland, that he had witnessed detainees being beaten up; although Mr Aktash's witness statement to the Inquiry mentioned this, his witness statement to the Royal Military Police (RMP) did not.  Before Mr Aktash left Iraq for the UK he remembered speaking to Colour Sergeant Huxley and that Huxley had told him that the detainees were involved in the killings of the RMPS and that he had beaten one of the detainees up.

Mr Aktash confirmed that he had given interviews to the Daily Mirror and ITV Tonight Programme; Mr Aktash said he had not received money for these interviews though ITV had paid for the meal.  Counsel to the Inquiry read various extracts from the transcript given to the journalists though Mr Aktash was vague what he may have told the journalists.  Mr Aktash's transcript with the Daily Mirror with respect to photographs showing soldiers abusing detainees showed Mr Aktash stating that there 'without a doubt' that the photographs were genuine but the Inquiry was told that the photographs later turned out to be fake; when questioned on this point Mr Aktash said that he had not said the words 'without a doubt' but admitted that he thought said photographs were genuine.  Mr Aktash guessed that some officers and believed that Major Peebles (this belief based on what Major Peebles had said in the operations room) tacitly encouraged the abuse of detainees in order to get useful information as the abuse was allowed to continue on without being stopped. 

Mr Aktash that he was of the opinion that Major Peebles was responsible for the detainees' questioning and that as he would have known of the mistreatment he should share responsibility.  Mr Aktash believed that when in Iraq soldiers were not following normal rules as in England and that if soldiers felt threatened in any way they were allowed to shoot and it would probably not be investigated.  Mr Aktash felt that because of this soldiers' behaviour in Iraq got out of hand at times.  Mr Aktash believed that the upper ranks did not condone this sort of behaviour, but that the lower ranks were rougher and uneducated so when things were left to their discretion things get out of hand.  Mr Aktash said that because of this he was scared to report such matters believing there could be repercussions as other soldiers could turn on the informant.  Mr Aktash confirmed that he may have exaggerated some things to the media but said that this was because it was a very lonely and stressful time for him.

Mr Aktash said that there were incidences where he was picked on for his background but he dealt with these issues.

When questioned by Mr Danny Friedman, one of the counsel for the detainees, Mr Aktash remembered one private being picked on by Huxley and that said private had a breakdown and had to go to hospital; Mr Aktash could not remember the name of said private (Mr Aktash confirmed, under cross-examination by Mr Evans, that he had never witnessed this and that it was the private who told him).  Mr Aktash said that if family member came to BG Main looking for their loved ones they would not be allowed to reveal who they held and members were sent on to the internment centre.

Mr James Dingemans QC, counsel for the MoD, questioned the witness.  Mr Aktash confirmed that he did not recall seeing privates beating the soldiers in the TDF.

Mr Ashley Underwood QC, counsel questioned the witness.  Mr Aktash confirmed that he had had some training in respect of prisoner handling but said it was confusing as soldiers also talk amongst themselves how to treat prisoners and the two become blurred.

Mr Clark questioned the witness.  Mr Aktash confirmed that he had just started his tour of duty in Iraq when he heard Major Peebles saying 'don't go as far as before' and that this was the first lot of detainees he had heard about in the ops room.

Evidence of Claire Ms Vogel (RMP)

Mr Nicholas Moss, counsel to the Inquiry,  questioned Ms Vogel.  

Ms Vogel confirmed that she was still in the army (Ms Vogel later confirmed she was trying to become an officer), had been in the RMP in September 2003 and that her unit had been posted to Iraq in April 03 after 6 RMPs were killed.  Ms Vogel said that she was given training on what to expect if captured, that you would expect to get food, water and shelter and to also expect things against the Geneva Convention such as rape and sexual assault.  Ms Vogel said she was also taught to expect stress positions and being deprived of sight, sound and sleep.  Ms Vogel did not recall and was not aware that stress positions/deprivation of sight, sound and sleep were contrary to the Geneva Convention.  In light of this and a conversation with a member of the Intelligence Corps, Ms Vogel was of the belief that Intelligence Corps could use stress positions to assist with questioning.   Ms Vogel confirmed that she had not been given training on whether hooding was permitted.

Ms Vogel said that when three members of her unit, RMP, were killed on 23 August 2003 this had a significant effect on her unit as a whole and that there was a lot of impetus, as far as the RMP were concerned, to find those involved.

Ms Vogel said that she was in BG Main when she saw two soldiers from 1 Queen’s Lancashire Regiment (1 QLR) supporting an unhooded, uncuffed detainee to walk.  The QLR soldiers said that the detainees were believed to be the ones responsible for the murder of Ms Vogel's colleagues; Ms Vogel said she was skeptical when she first heard this as she had not heard anything in advance about 'Op Salerno' (the military raid on hotel).

Ms Vogel did not remember being invited to see the detainees but after seeing her witness statement, which said that the QLR soldiers had invited her in, Ms Vogel relied on the statement and agreed.  Ms Vogel confirmed that another RMP (male) accompanied her into the TDF though she did not recall who; it was suggested to Ms Vogel that she was reticent to identify the other RMP as something had gone wrong in the TDF.  When asked why she went into the TDF, Ms Vogel replied 'out of curiosity'.  Ms Vogel admitted it was not particularly appropriate for her to have gone in to the TDF.  Ms Vogel said that the TDF smelt of urine and faeces and that she would not like to be kept in that room for very long.

Ms Vogel remembered seeing 6 detainees, all unhooded and Ms Vogel did not believe they were plasticuffed.  Ms Vogel remembered one detainee holding his right side and moaning (Ms Vogel did not remember seeing anyone else with injuries).  Ms Vogel also remembered the detainees being made to do warm-up exercises; when asked how many soldiers were involved Ms Vogel said she could not remember and asked to look at her witness statement.  Ms Vogel was asked whether the detainees looked 'exhausted' when doing the exercises to which Ms Vogel responded 'possibly'; Ms Vogel's witness statement stated that the detainees looked 'either extremely drunk of extremely tired and that as they had not been drinking they must have been extremely tired'.  When asked why she had not reported what she had seen Ms Vogel said that she had not witnessed any mistreatment.

The Inquiry was told that a witness to the Inquiry had said that the RMP were laughing at the detainees between 9 and 10am; Ms Vogel denied this was happening.  Ms Vogel said she had witnessed no violence towards the detainees.

Mr Danny Friedman, counsel for the detainees, questioned Ms Vogel.  Ms Vogel confirmed that the RMP were not generally respected by other soldiers due to their interference.  When asked whether she thought it improper for the detainees to do exercises when they were extremely tired Ms Vogel responded that they had been in a position for a while and were entitled to do exercises to relieve their muscles; when asked whether the detainees were choosing to do these exercises Ms Vogel responded that they were being asked to do the exercises and did not see them being forced to do such exercises.

Mr Nicholas Evans, counsel for the Inquiry, questioned the witness.  Ms Vogel said she thought Iraq smelt, saying 'It is quite evident as soon as you step off the plane that the place stinks'.  Ms Vogel went on to say that this smell was one of 'dust, faeces.  It's not a nice pleasant smell.'  When asked to compare this smell to that of the TDF Ms Vogel said it was different as the TDF smelt of urine, an ammonia smell.

Evidence of Gareth Mr Hill

Mr Gerard Elias QC, counsel to the Inquiry,  questioned the witness.  Mr Hill confirmed that in September 2003 he was a HGV driver for 1QLR.  For Operation Salerno Mr Hill's role was as a driver and he never left his vehicle during this operation so did not go in to the hotel.  Mr Hill said that when he got to BG Main that the detainees were possibly hooded and that they were plasticuffed.  Mr Hill had been given a list of the names of the detainees which he needed to report and Mr Hill went into the right hand room of the TDF to check one of these names.  Mr Hill seemed uncomfortable being questioned and would give vague answers, almost avoiding the question but after intense questioning believed he saw the detainees in stress positions when he entered the TDF; a drawing he gave as part of his witness statement showed the stress position he saw.  Mr Hill remembered Corporal Stacey kicking the detainees' feet apart.  Mr Hill believed that some detainees were in a stress position, that some were not and that they were being told, possibly shouted at, not to talk.  Mr Hill admitted that he was having difficulty remembering these events and confirmed that the account he gave back in 2004 would be the most reliable and accurate.

Mr Hill said that his multiple left the TDF save for Fallon and Crowcroft who stayed behind as guards.  Mr Hill confirmed that he did not see Fallon and Crowcroft until the next day.  Mr Hill was read various extracts from his witness statement to the RMP, which Mr Hill agreed with, including an extract that Fallon and Crowcroft bragging about a 'choir' with detainees.  When further asked about the choir Mr Hill said that he had 'possibly' heard about it from Fallon and Crowcroft.

Mr Hill confirmed that he owned a Fuji camera and took pictures with it in Iraq.  Photographs were shown to the Inquiry, and the Inquiry were told that expert evidence would be provided supporting the assertion that such photographs were taken with a Fuji camera.  Photographs of a hospital, a lorry and a group of soldiers were shown to the Inquiry; Mr Hill seemed unsure who had taken all these photographs but admitting taking one of them.  The Inquiry was told that the same Fuji camera had been used to record footage of hooded detainees in the TDF.  Mr Hill was asked whether he took video footage of these detainees and said he did not recall but after further questioning said it was not him and that it could have been one of the other soldiers.  When the Chairman questioned Mr Hill on this point Mr Hill said that there was no lock-up in his room for his possessions.

When questioned on the point Mr Hill said that he felt that members of call sign 10a should have been defendants at the tribunal as they had been with the detainees the longest.