The Baha Mousa Public Inquiry

Day 15: Friday 2 October 2009

The evidence of GMTV Group Driver Richard Betteridge, Senior Aircraftman Scott Mr Hughes, Lance Corporal James Mr Riley

Mr Elias confirmed that detainee D2 was still unwell and was being examined by a psychologist and the Inquiry would be given a report in respect of this.

The Evidence of GMTV Group Driver Richard Betteridge

Mr Elias questioned Mr Betteridge.  Richard Betteridge was called as a witness.  Mr Betteridge confirmed that he left the army in September 2004 and that in July 2003 he was posted to Iraq as a driver for the media operations team, escorting journalists all over Iraq.   Mr Betteridge confirmed that he visited BG Main September 2003 at noon on either the 15 September or 16 September.  Mr Betteridge was informed that his statement said it was 15:00 which Mr Betteridge accepted to be the truth as his memory would have been better at the time of giving the statement.

Mr Betteridge was driving in a two vehicle convoy with GMTV journalists and thought that Major Greenwood or another soldier were in the vehicle he was travelling in.  Lance Corporal Payne Mr Riley along with GMTV reporters were in other vehicle.  Mr Betteridge could not remember but he thought that Mr Riley was giving top cover in his vehicle.  Mr Betteridge said that when he got to BG Main he parked near the accommodation block which was a couple of meters away from the Temporary Detention Facility (TDF).  On arrival an officer took the journalists from GMTV to HQ leaving Mr Hughes, Mr Riley and Mr Betteridge with the vehicles.  Mr Hughes then went to unload his rifle at an unloading bay leaving Mr Betteridge and Mr Riley with the vehicles.

Mr Betteridge heard shouts of pain coming from the TDF but thought soldiers were “messing about”.  However, when he heard the same noises again he walked over to the TDF (in the direction of the unloading bay); he unsure whether Mr Riley accompanied him at first but estimated that he and Mr Riley spent 30 minutes in the vicinity of the TDF.  Mr Betteridge said that one soldier appeared to be in charge of the scene (the soldier told him that he was a provost Corporal Payne in his regiment and Mr Betteridge later learnt this was Corporal Payne Corporal Payne) and that there were a further three or four soldiers that seemed to be dealing with the detainees.  He said that other than the soldier who was supposedly in charge he remembers nothing about the other soldiers save that one had a shaved head.  Mr Betteridge could see Mr Hughes looking into the right hand room of the TDF.

Mr Betteridge  was taken to his witness statement given in Sept 2003 where he described 2 soldiers outside (both wearing desert combats); one of these soldiers had 'Queen's Lancashire Regiment' written in maroon indicating he was a private, the other soldier was 18 or 19 with dark, very short hair (No 1 or 2) but Mr Betteridge confirmed this, said he did not speak to these soldiers and that he would not be able to recognise these soldiers if he saw them again.  In his  witness statement he said that the Provost Corporal Payne was in his mid 30s but looked older than he was, was 5' 7'' or 5' 8'' with fair hair, wore desert combat trousers, boots and a sandy coloured T-shirt with the word 'Provost' on it.  Mr Betteridge was outside the TDF, which he could not see inside, and could hear a soldier saying 'Get your fucking arms up, get your fucking arms up Grandad' repeatedly.  He heard shouting from both the right hand and left hand rooms and could tell more than one person was doing the shouting.  He looked through the left hand room to the TDF and could see two or three detainees in the room, in stress positions crouched but not sitting down, with wrists tied in front by tie wraps, the type purchased from electrical stores to wrap cables with sandbags over their heads.  Mr Betteridge said one of the detainees was against the wall unhooded albeit tie-wrapped and that the other two detainees, were hooded and tie-wrapped.  Mr Betteridge said one of the detainees was praying and that the room was dark, hot, dusty and smelt unpleasant.  He was asked why the unhooded detainee was against the wall.  Corporal Payne said it was because he had had a heart attack.  Corporal Payne also told him that they had to keep an eye on one of the detainees as said detainee had rugby tackled someone and Mr Betteridge believed he was referring to the unhooded detainee.

Corporal Payne asked Mr Betteridge 'Do you want to see the choir?' He did not understand what this meant.  He went to the doorway of the left hand room and Corporal Payne lined up three or four detainees with faces against the wall and kicked, by shoving foot in back but not bringing foot back, every other detainee in the small of the back so as to induce a noise.  The detainees shouted in pain when kicked and Corporal Payne laughed.  Mr Betteridge thought another TDF soldier witnessed choir but could not be sure.  He also remembered Corporal Payne going over to a detainee who had dropped his hands from his stress position and saying 'Get your fucking hands up.'  Before the 'choir' Mr Betteridge recalled one of the soldiers taking a detainee to a portaloo outside the TDF, assisting him as his hands were tied though hood was not removed for this.  Mr Betteridge remembered the detainees looking fatigued as they could not hold arms up for long.  He said that what he saw in the TDF was improper.  His  testimonial from the court martial stated that it was 'definitely not' Corporal Payne that mentioned the choir which is supported by another paragraph in the court martial where Mr Betteridge came to the conclusion that it was not Corporal Payne as he had just gone into the TDF.

After witnessing the “choir” Mr Betteridge remembered what looked like a senior NCO come from the direction that Mr Betteridge had parked the vehicles and told Corporal Payne to keep the noise down as GMTV reporters were in the camp, before heading back.

A sketch drawn in relation to Mr Betteridge's witness statement showed two detainees in the left hand room and six detainees in the right hand room with Mr Hughes and Mr Riley by the entrance to the right hand room.   Although the sketch from his witness statement showed the choir in the left hand room, when questioned Mr Betteridge could not remember exactly which room it was.

He thought that Mr Riley was with him when he went back to the vehicles and that Mr Hughes came over later.  The GMTV crew arrived at the vehicles five minutes later.  He also confirmed that Mr Hughes was the type of person who exaggerated stories.  Although Mr Betteridge’s witness statement said he had discussed the incident at TDF with Mr Riley and Mr Hughes,  he could not remember what was said.

Mr Betteridge said that he finished work that night but did not report what he had seen at the TDF straightaway but reported it to Sergeant Major Watson the next day after he had finished all his duties.  His witness statement stated that he had reported it the same day but he said that this was not the case.  He  said that the Royal Military Police (RMP) came to speak to him about the incident the night after speaking to Sergeant Major Watson; this conflicted with his witness statement and the transcript of his evidence at the court martial where he had  stated that he had not voluntarily reported this information.  He denied that he was protecting anybody and agreed that he should have reported the incident immediately.

Mr James Dingemans QC, counsel for the Ministry of Defence, questioned Mr Betteridge.  He confirmed that other than Corporal Payne's actions he did not see any other kicks or punches by soldiers to the detainees.

Mr Michael Topolski QC, counsel for Corporal Payne,  questioned Mr Betteridge.  He confirmed that provost staff (staff responsible for prisoner handling) are 'pretty unpopular' amongst other soldiers.  He said that he did not know that Baha Mousa was dead when he reported the TDF incident.  He said he had never got wind of a campaign to 'get Corporal Payne Corporal Payne'.  When Mr Betteridge was questioned by the RMP he said in his witness statement that while he, Mr Riley and Mr Hughes was at the TDF that 'either a senior NCO or an officer' had visited though in April 2009. He had remembered that it was a 'Sergeant Major' that had visited.  Mr  Topolski said that the man in question was a 'Captain' called 'Sweeney' at which point the Chairman disallowed this line of questioning on the basis this was an assertion.  Mr Betteridge said that he had not gone inside the TDF, only to the doorway but said that Mr Hughes had gone inside.  He told the Inquiry he had known Mr Hughes for 4 or 5 weeks at the time of the TDF incident but had told the court martial two days, he said he did not remember but admitted his memory would have been better at the court martial.  He did not remember Mr Hughes talking to foreigners, in particular Dutch or Danish individuals outside the TDF.

The Chairman questioned Mr Betteridge on why his court martial account of who had mentioned the choir was so different to the version of events he had given the Inquiry.  His answers were vague and he said he could not remember.

The evidence of Senior Aircraftman Scott Mr Hughes

Mr Nicholas Moss , counsel to the Inquiry, questioned Mr Scott Hughes.  Mr Hughes confirmed that he was a Senior Aircraftman (SAC) in the RAF, was a media operations driver (driving media round Iraq) at the time and providing top cover of the day of the TDF incident, that he had been with Lance Bombardier Betteridge and Lance Corporal Riley on that day and that he thought this was the first time he had met them.  Mr Hughes confirmed that he had not had training in prisoner handling by the RAF but that his understanding was that you treat prisoners how you would like to be treated.

Mr Hughes believed he arrived at BG Main on Monday, 15 September around lunchtime though when told by counsel to he Inquiry that he had told the court martial that it was 3pm and to the RMP, 2pm, Mr Hughes was confused as to what time it actually was.  Mr Hughes could not be 100% but thought that a GMTV reporter, Cordelia Kretzschmar, was in his vehicle along with a GMTV cameraman in the back, that Mr Betteridge was driving and that either Lieutenant Commander Walters or Major Mayo were in the front.  Mr Hughes' statement nearer the time said that Major Greenwood was in the car and Mr Hughes confirmed to the Inquiry that it was possible that this officer was in the vehicle and not Walters or Mayo.  Mr Hughes said that on arrival to BG Main that he went to the cookhouse to get some water then went to unload his weapon.  When asked whether he had heard any noises coming from the TDF Mr Hughes could not remember anything in particular.  Mr Hughes' statement on the 19th September said that he could hear shouting but could not associate it with a particular building but Mr Riley told him that they were prisoners and they had been there since yesterday; when this extract was read out, Mr Hughes said he 'vaguely' remembered this and after being told that his statement said that he wanted to go to the TDF said that 'If I said it in my statement, then, yes, it's true sir.'  Mr Hughes agreed that unloading his weapon was an excuse to go over to the TDF.

Mr Hughes confirmed his witness statement description of the soldiers at TDF, that he saw two soldiers outside the TDF when he approached, one who was 18, broad shouldered, medium build, 5'9'' to 5'11'', close cropped hair with full combat 95 uniform but no rank showing and that he could identify said soldier again (Male 2).  Mr Hughes confirmed that although he had attended an identification parade and gone to BG main to see soldiers in the back of a lorry that he was not able to pick out this soldier.  Mr Hughes confirmed that the second soldier as 21, with short, dark hair, shaved back and sides, longer on top, broad shoulders, medium build with combat 95 desert clothing, no rank or insignia (Male 3) but again could not pick him out in an identification parade.  Mr Hughes was however able to identify another soldier, 25, 5'11'' to 6'1'', slim build, dark brown hair, short on sides, long on top, thin face, defined cheekbones with full combat 95 (Male 4) though when it came to giving a statement to the Inquiry Mr Hughes said he could no longer remember anything about male 4 at all.  Mr Hughes remembered it being said that the detainees were suspected of killing the 2 RMPs but did not know which soldier said this; after being read an extract from his statement saying that Male 2 had said something very similar Mr Hughes confirmed that this was likely to have been correct.  According to Mr Hughes' witness statement to the Inquiry Mr Hughes had asked how long the detainees had been at the TDF and Male 4 had responded 36 hours and went on to say that the detainees had been interrogated once, were not allowed to sleep, and that the detainees had pissed and shit themselves; Mr Hughes said he could not remember this but that if this was in his witness statement it must be correct.  Mr Hughes' statement to the Inquiry also stated that Mr Hughes recollected that Male 2 may have hit a detainee referred to as 'Grandad', though Mr Hughes could not remember this incident when giving evidence to the Inquiry.  However Mr Hughes' statement to the RMP said that Male 2 was not violent; Mr Hughes confirmed that his statement to the RMP was likely to have been correct.  Mr Hughes' statement to the RMP also stated that Male 3 was outside suggesting that Male 3 was not involved with any violence; Mr Hughes agreed with this sentiment.  Mr Hughes' witness statement to the RMP also stated that Corporal Payne took one of the detainees to a portaloo outside the TDF and said 'You can piss for Iraq inside, why can't you do it now?' which Mr Hughes assumed this to mean that said detainee had urinated inside the TDF.  Mr Hughes said the smell just outside the TDF was like going into a portaloo on a hot day and inside the room was hot and smelt like urine or a really bad gym.  Mr Hughes said that there were two unhooded, albeit plasticuffed, men (one old, one young) next to each other in the left hand room along with another hooded and plasticuffed man.  Mr Hughes remembered seeing hooded, plasticuffed detainees in right hand room, cross-legged with arms outstretched.  Mr Hughes' witness statement to the Inquiry stated that he saw Corporal Payne kick a detainee even though Mr Hughes' statement to the RMP did not mention this; when questioned on this point Mr Hughes said that it was a possibility that it happened.  Mr Hughes also said that Corporal Payne had asked Mr Hughes whether he wanted to see the choir; Mr Hughes' statement said that Males 2 and 4 were also present when Corporal Payne hit members of the 'choir' and that they laughed.  Mr Hughes statement said that Male 4 had kicked the toes of detainees, that he had squeezed water at Grandad so he could not swallow it and that he slapped the faces of detainees; Mr Hughes could not recollect all these events or who had done them.  It was suggested to Mr Hughes that he had attributed actions undertaken by Male 4 to Corporal Payne.  Mr Hughes confirmed that he also remembered Male 5 kicking and slapping a detainee.

Mr Hughes remembered seeing one detainee, hooded, blood shot eyes (which Mr Hughes remembered seeing even though he remembers the detainee being hooded) with wrists and thumbs plasticuffed, in the middle room of the TDF on soggy cardboard and that he looked tired.  Corporal Payne made a movement with his foot towards this man's genitals and the man groaned in pain.  Mr Hughes confirmed that water was squeezed hard into this detainee's mouth so he could not drink it.  Mr Hughes also confirmed that due to the heat/humidity he consumed 8 litres of water a day when on escort duty in Iraq.

Mr Hughes remembered seeing what he thought was a 'middle-aged' (mid 30s-early 40s) officer with short hair come into left hand room at one point though could not remember his uniform or anything else.

Mr Hughes remembered one of the soldiers saying that a detainee had had a heart attack and that a Dutch or Danish doctor arrived on the scene.

Mr Hughes admitted that he pointed out to the soldiers that one of the detainee's heads was bowed that a soldier kicked his feet; when it was suggested to Mr Hughes that he must have known that ill treatment would be doled out to this detainee, Mr Hughes said that it was a speak before you think moment.  When asked why he didn't stop what he saw Mr Hughes said he did not know what orders they had been given, though did not suggest that they had been given such orders.  Moreover given the number of soldiers and aggressive nature he thought it best to keep quiet.

Mr Hughes confirmed that although he knew that what he had seen was wrong that he still did not report it that day though he reported it next day to Lieutenant Commander Walters who reported it to Major Mayo who reported it to the RMP.  Mr Hughes first denied that he had come back to the UK from Iraq early but when pushed on the point said that he believed that Warrant Officer Spence had suggested this for his own safety.

It was suggested to Mr Hughes that he had exaggerated what he had seen in the TDF in order to come back to the UK early; Mr Hughes denied this.  Mr Hughes was told that Mr Betteridge had told the Inquiry that Mr Hughes was the sort of person who exaggerated stories which Mr Hughes thought odd given they barely knew each other at the time of the incident.

The evidence of Lance Corporal James Mr Riley

James Mr Riley was called as a witness.  Mr Riley confirmed he was in the army between 1996 and May 2008, that he was a  Lance Corporal in September 2003 and that he was a transport manager at the time, involved with managing the transport of media crews.  Mr Riley remembered visiting BG Main (known to the Inquiry as QLR Main) in a two vehicle convoy at 3pm between the 14 and 16 September; when Mr Riley was told that his witness statement said that it was the 16 September Mr Riley said this must be correct.

Mr Riley went over to the unloading bay to unload his weapon and heard the words 'no sleep Grandad' coming from the TDF.  Mr Riley went to the TDF and assumed Corporal Payne was in charge by his age and the way he carried himself.  He remembers two younger soldiers outside the TDF.  Mr Riley only remembered Corporal Payne, who Mr Riley later picked out at an identification parade, shouting and that he brought out a plasticuffed, hooded detainee to the portaloo.  Our of curiosity Mr Riley went into the right hand room of the TDF and saw 6 to 8 hooded, plasticuffed detainees sitting cross-legged with arms raised in front of them, outstretched.

Mr Riley confirmed that in 1998 that he had been an observer and assister in an exercise simulating what soldiers should expect if they were captured, where soldiers were hooded, placed in stress positions and subjected to white noise.  Mr Riley remembers finding this excuse disturbing.

Mr Riley said that detainees had trouble keeping their arms raised and that when they dropped their arms Corporal Payne would lift them, getting the detainees to resume the position.

Mr Riley said that when Corporal Payne showed him the 'chorus' the other soldiers with him said 'watch this'.  Mr Riley said that Corporal Payne tapped each detainee just below the waist in the bum area with his foot and that each detainee jumped and let out a yelp.  Although Mr Riley's witness statement had used the word kick and not tap, the statement did say that the kicks were not forceful; when questioned on this point Mr Riley said that 'kick' was the only word he could think of at the time.  Mr Riley's original witness statement did say that the kicks were to the kidneys though Mr Riley said that this was ignorance on his part as to where the kidneys were located about the body.  Mr Riley said all the soldiers laughed, including himself when they had seen the chorus.  Mr Riley said he laughed out of nerves and the fact everyone else was laughing.  Mr Riley did not remember seeing the younger soldiers having any interaction with the detainees.  Mr Riley confirmed that he did not report the incident as did not want to get another soldier into trouble.

Under cross-examination by Mr Topolski QC it was highlighted that when giving his statement to the RMP that Mr Riley thought Corporal Payne was a soldier called 'Mac'.  After further questioning Mr Riley conceded that he may have been mistaken who mentioned the chorus.